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F stop and depth of field
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Jan 5, 2015 23:18:55   #
CaptainC Loc: Colorado, south of Denver
 
Apaflo wrote:
If you don't know how it works, it's "dead". If you do know how it works, you just fix whatever it is that's wrong! (The first thing to know is that the "satellite signal" did not die. There are many satellites, so there is a signal. You don't need to fix that.)

I haven't experienced that with a GPS, but in the late '80s I was in a twin Navajo that was loaded to the gills with navigation equipment for bad weather. The weather was overcast, but not bad. We were flying from Nome across Norton Sound (IFR above the clouds), and because the weather was so nice, the pilot felt no need to use everything, and turned on only one of the two Loran-C radios (this was the only plane they had with two, all the others had one). I went to sleep, which is normal for me.

So I got woke up by a very excited pilot saying "This isn't Saint Michael". Well, sure enough I looked out the window and he was right, it wasn't. Then he said that again in an ever more excited voice, and I notice his eyes were as big as silver dollars. That's when I realized he had just dropped down below the clouds fully expecting to see a couple of islands off St Michael, and didn't! His mind turned to jello.

It would have been better to have had both units turned on I suppose, but I was aware that a Loran-C can lock up at about 30 degrees off, and that meant we were either just far enough northeast or just far enough southwest of where we wanted to be that we couldn't see it. To the north were mountains and scrub forest, to the south in the far distance were a million lakes on the tundra that could only the the Yukon River delta. So I told the pilot that Ghod's Country was that way, and we needed to go the other way. Soon enough we were where we should have been.

The pilot just didn't know enough about how anything worked except that airplane! And then he told me the rest of the story. He had no sectional maps because they couldn't find one in the office! The other guy there said, "If you get lost just ask Floyd, he's been there!" and that is just exactly what he did! Scary. Turns out he'd only been flying out of Nome for three months, and wasn't used to quite this much adventure. For everyone else, it's a way of life here...

Ya gotta know how this stuff works, or you don't survive.
If you don't know how it works, it's "dead&qu... (show quote)


Cool story. But it is about incompetence and failure to plan. It does not address the issue. It also shows how local knowledge can be helpful. It does not answer my question, however.

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Jan 5, 2015 23:21:32   #
CaptainC Loc: Colorado, south of Denver
 
pmackd wrote:
Back in the day, pilots flying across oceans, like mariners, learned celestial navigation and carried a sextant.


Yes. I crewed some DC-8s that had the sextant hole in the ceiling. Today, 3 GPS units are better!

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Jan 5, 2015 23:27:49   #
NormanHarley Loc: Colorado
 
I just hope I'm hanging out with guys like oldtigger and Apaflo if we ever have a major coronal mass ejection solar flare. I think we would survive! And I would be good to have around during a zombie apocalypse. :twisted:

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Jan 5, 2015 23:35:55   #
Apaflo Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
 
CaptainC wrote:
Cool story. But it is about incompetence and failure to plan. It does not address the issue. It also shows how local knowledge can be helpful. It does not answer my question, however.

Captain, it does address your question. It wasn't local knowledge that made the difference. In fact that pilot had been there more often than I had. He's in the business of flying airplanes by rote and by note. I'm in the business of trouble shooting problems. His world is pre defined, mine is only what I can make out of it. He had a list of memorized actions that accomplish his job, and on that day he came across a situation where none of them worked. And as a newcomer to Arctic Alaska I'm sure he was well aware (and happy about it) of just exactly how remote he was from everything he'd learned. And all of a sudden, he was totally lost in the biggest expanse of "nowhere" that he could imagine. Like I said, his mind turned to jello.

I had never been exactly where we were, just south of St Michael. And it wouldn't have made any difference anyway. The business of knowing how things work, and being able to stay calm in the face of the unknown because of that knowledge, is what made that situation easy to work out. It wasn't obvious in an instant, because it wasn't a trained "how to" response. But I never thought for an instant that it was something I wouldn't be able to figure out. The pilot knew he was gonna die! I was ready for lunch...

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Jan 5, 2015 23:51:06   #
Muddyvalley Loc: McMinnville, Oregon
 
Apaflo wrote:
Captain, it does address your question. It wasn't local knowledge that made the difference. In fact that pilot had been there more often than I had. He's in the business of flying airplanes by rote and by note. I'm in the business of trouble shooting problems. His world is pre defined, mine is only what I can make out of it. He had a list of memorized actions that accomplish his job, and on that day he came across a situation where none of them worked. And as a newcomer to Arctic Alaska I'm sure he was well aware (and happy about it) of just exactly how remote he was from everything he'd learned. And all of a sudden, he was totally lost in the biggest expanse of "nowhere" that he could imagine. Like I said, his mind turned to jello.

I had never been exactly where we were, just south of St Michael. And it wouldn't have made any difference anyway. The business of knowing how things work, and being able to stay calm in the face of the unknown because of that knowledge, is what made that situation easy to work out. It wasn't obvious in an instant, because it wasn't a trained "how to" response. But I never thought for an instant that it was something I wouldn't be able to figure out. The pilot knew he was gonna die! I was ready for lunch...
Captain, it does address your question. It wasn't... (show quote)


The pilot was ill prepared, and relied on his loran rather than common sense, his compass, and pilotage when he dropped out of the clouds. He probably didn't bring a chart because all those lakes look alike & he had that new fangled Loran. Not someone I would fly with. Is he still around? That must have been a while ago. He didn't have you to save him on his later trips.

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Jan 6, 2015 00:00:38   #
cjc2 Loc: Hellertown PA
 
Only 11 pages to go!

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Jan 6, 2015 00:10:05   #
dynaquest1 Loc: Austin, Texas
 
How did we get from depth of field to celestial, grid, pressure pattern and GPS navigation? I feel like I'm back at Naval Air Station Corpus Christi taking advanced air nav in 1970 (minus the GPS). Perhaps you guys should start another thread!



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Jan 6, 2015 00:27:40   #
Apaflo Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
 
Muddyvalley wrote:
The pilot was ill prepared, and relied on his loran rather than common sense, his compass, and pilotage when he dropped out of the clouds. He probably didn't bring a chart because all those lakes look alike & he had that new fangled Loran. Not someone I would fly with. Is he still around? That must have been a while ago. He didn't have you to save him on his later trips.

He was in fact flying absolutely by the book!

You aren't thinking about what he is going to do with "common sense, his compass, and pilotage when he dropped out of the clouds"! All of his training, and the "book" that he was required to fly by, said that he would be in a specific spot where those items would in fact allow him to proceed. Except he wasn't in that spot, and none of those items would do him a bit of good.

And Loran was not exactly a new fangled thing by the late 80's. Loran-C had already been around for 30 years, replacing Loran-A. Incidentally, we were relatively a short distance from the Port Clarence Loran site north of Nome.

He was not supposed to ever get even close to those lakes, and they were way off in the distance too.

I don't know, but imagine he went on to great things. Experience flying with Bering Air out of Nome looks pretty good on a resume even today. You say you wouldn't fly with him, but not only why not, but how would you ever know? You go to the Bering Air office and tell them you want to go somewhere. They tell you what airplanes they have available and when there will be a pilot. You don't choose the pilot. (Granted there are some, not with that company, that I decided I'd never fly with again, and would develop "weather problems" if they was going to be the pilot. And more than one of those died in an airplane crash too.)

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Jan 6, 2015 00:27:47   #
oldtigger Loc: Roanoke Virginia-USA
 
[quote=dynaquest1]How did we get from depth of field to celestial, grid, pressure pattern and GPS navigation? Iquote]

we got here because someone decided on page 1 that the OP was stupid to try learn anything and would be better off just blindly snapping pictures.

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Jan 6, 2015 08:38:23   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
oldtigger wrote:
you have chosen to use gps, if it fails go to your backup system, pipeline, coastline, or a man walking ahead of you with a swinging lantern.

A more realistic situation would be auto focus; a useful and powerful tool which will bite you in the but if you don't understand manual focus and the errors auto focus can make.
I know different ways to attain focus by hand, but I don't necessarily fully understand the method used to autofocus every particular camera I own. Similarly, the several camera systems I own use several different means to stabilize an image, but I know the particulars of only one of them - but all of them seem to get the job done.

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Jan 6, 2015 09:51:22   #
NormanHarley Loc: Colorado
 
oldtigger wrote:

we got here because someone decided on page 1 that the OP was stupid to try learn anything and would be better off just blindly snapping pictures.


When did it become the norm to discourage the learning process? I applaud the OP for wanting to learn more, to expand his horizons in any area that he finds an interest in. The naysayers seem to be of the same mind that gave us new math, a 'dumbed down America', and a disengaged population who stare vacantly at their phones. Maybe OP would have gone on to greater things with encouragement, jumped into the field of metamaterials and helped us all escape the limitations of glass with a new array of flat lenses for our cameras.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_lens

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Jan 6, 2015 10:55:44   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
NormanHarley wrote:
When did it become the norm to discourage the learning process? I applaud the OP for wanting to learn more, to expand his horizons in any area that he finds an interest in. The naysayers seem to be of the same mind that gave us new math, a 'dumbed down America', and a disengaged population who stare vacantly at their phones. Maybe OP would have gone on to greater things with encouragement, jumped into the field of metamaterials and helped us all escape the limitations of glass with a new array of flat lenses for our cameras.
When did it become the norm to discourage the lear... (show quote)
Learning is fine. My point was that one can be an excellent photographer without that particular knowledge, just as one can be an excellent photographer without having my wife's knowledge of the duality of light (she has a PhD in Theoretical Physical Chemistry).

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Jan 6, 2015 11:03:10   #
anotherview Loc: California
 
These discussions may help you better understand Aperture:

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/depth-of-field.htm

http://photography.about.com/od/takingpictures/ss/DOF_2.htm

http://www.exposureguide.com/focusing-basics.htm

Happy New Year!
thom w wrote:
How does F stop effect depth of field. Not what is the effect, I know that. How does it work? Years ago I played with pinhole cameras. Is it like that. Is a high F stop (small aperture) like adding another element? If I should just go read a book I can do that. Thank you anyone who answers.

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Jan 6, 2015 11:14:32   #
CaptainC Loc: Colorado, south of Denver
 
NormanHarley wrote:
When did it become the norm to discourage the learning process? I applaud the OP for wanting to learn more, to expand his horizons in any area that he finds an interest in. The naysayers seem to be of the same mind that gave us new math, a 'dumbed down America', and a disengaged population who stare vacantly at their phones. Maybe OP would have gone on to greater things with encouragement, jumped into the field of metamaterials and helped us all escape the limitations of glass with a new array of flat lenses for our cameras.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_lens
When did it become the norm to discourage the lear... (show quote)


Now Norman, nobody ever discouraged the learning process. Your response says more about your political views than addressing the issue. The point was that while it is fine and interesting and fascinating to learn about the inner workings of things, there are times when that knowledge is of more of an academic nature than practical. That is a fact, it is provable and it is obvious. Don't twist it and make it more than it is.

Read one of Stephen Hawking's books. Interesting and fascinating, but the knowledge there does not do a thing for our daily lives. That's all.

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Jan 6, 2015 11:41:48   #
NormanHarley Loc: Colorado
 
CaptainC wrote:
Now Norman, nobody ever discouraged the learning process. Your response says more about your political views than addressing the issue. The point was that while it is fine and interesting and fascinating to learn about the inner workings of things, there are times when that knowledge is of more of an academic nature than practical. That is a fact, it is provable and it is obvious. Don't twist it and make it more than it is.

Read one of Stephen Hawking's books. Interesting and fascinating, but the knowledge there does not do a thing for our daily lives. That's all.
Now Norman, nobody ever discouraged the learning p... (show quote)


Thank you for addressing my political nature. That reminds me of a friend telling his young daughter, who was struggling with mathematics at the time, "Don't worry, honey. You're so pretty." Your remark was a well intentioned aside, I am sure. I try to never impose my self perceived limitations of another's pursuit of a like field. Yes, understanding the duality of light, as rehess stated, may not help him to take better pictures. But what if, just maybe, it were to help someone else in their quest to create better art? Believing that Stephen Hawking's book "does not do a thing for our daily lives" is made from your perceptions and limitations. For another person, it may become a life long endeavor of using the concepts to improve our lives here on Earth.

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