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Separation of Church and State
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Jul 17, 2014 23:36:27   #
OnTheFly Loc: Tennessee
 
Someone show me in the Constitution where it says separation of Church and State.

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Jul 17, 2014 23:37:54   #
OnTheFly Loc: Tennessee
 
No George...We won't all agree until you show us where it is in the Constitution.
GeorgeH wrote:
I would hope that all of us would agree that the First Amendment separation of church and state is fundamental to the ideals of our country. Religion is be a private matter. No where in the Constitution is God or Jesus mentioned, nor is religion, save to assert that a religious test is never to be required to hold public office.

Americans United for the Separation of Church and State recently posted this to its membership, of which I am proud to include myself :http://au.org/media/press-releases/legal-battle-over-north-carolina-town-s-sectarian-war-memorial-to-go-to-trial

For those who don't wish to view the site, here's the text:

Legal Battle Over North Carolina Town’s Sectarian War Memorial To Go To Trial
Opponents Of Christian Displays In City Of King Will Have Day In Court
Jul 8, 2014
A dispute over a Christian war memorial in the city of King, N.C., deserves to go to trial, a federal court has ruled.
The court also ruled that several of the city’s practices with respect to religious memorial ceremonies violate the separation of church and state.
U.S. District Judge James A. Beaty ruled today that many issues raised in the lawsuit are compelling and should go to trial. The lawsuit, Hewett v. City of King, was filed by Americans United for Separation of Church and State on behalf of Steven Hewett, a decorated veteran of the war in Afghanistan.
In the lawsuit, Americans United asked the city to remove the display of a Christian flag as well as a Christian-themed statue at the city’s war memorial and to stop promoting Christian prayers at official events held at the memorial.
“A memorial that incorporates Christian symbols and promotes Christian messages fails to honor the sacrifice of all of our veterans,” said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United. “We’re asking the city of King to stop elevating one religion over others.”
Hewett, who won the Combat Action Badge and Bronze Star during his service with the U.S. Army in Afghanistan, first complained about King’s overt promotion of Christianity in July 2010. A non-Christian, he asked for the removal of the Christian flag from the city-sponsored memorial out of respect for the many non-Christian veterans who have served their country.
City officials rejected Hewett’s request, and community residents who learned of the controversy also besieged the council with demands that the Christian flag remain in place.
After a complaint from Americans United, the city council voted in September 2010 to remove the Christian flag, but its absence was temporary.
In November 2010, the city – following advice from the Religious Right legal group the Alliance Defending Freedom – created a “limited public forum” in which a flagpole at the veterans’ memorial was reserved for a rotating group of pre-approved flags. The city conducted a lottery and selected 52 flag applications, one for each week of the year.
Americans United says in its lawsuit that this so-called public forum is a sham. The Christian flag has flown at the memorial for 47 out of 52 weeks in 2011, 2012, and 2013.
The city also displays a statue of a soldier kneeling before a cross, and it hosts memorial events featuring prayers and extensive Christian content. Even after purporting to transfer those events to private entities, the city remained involved in their planning and sponsorship.
In his ruling, Beaty said that a reasonable factfinder could conclude that the display of the Christian flag and cross statue violate the separation of church and state, and thus those claims should proceed to trial. In addition, Beaty concluded that the city unconstitutionally participated in and promoted religious memorial ceremonies. Beaty also rejected the city’s argument that the recent Supreme Court decision of Town of Greece v. Galloway authorized the city’s conduct.
“We’re pleased that Mr. Hewett will have his day in court, and that the court has already recognized that the city went too far in promoting Christianity at memorial ceremonies,” said AU Senior Litigation Counsel Gregory M. Lipper. “Veterans should be recognized for serving their country, not singled out on the basis of their religious beliefs.”
The case is being litigated by Lipper, AU Legal Director Ayesha N. Khan, and AU Madison Fellow Zachary Dietert. John M. Moye of Kilpatrick Townsend & Stockton LLP is serving as local counsel.
Americans United is a religious liberty watchdog group based in Washington, D.C. Founded in 1947, the organization educates Americans about the importance of church-state separation in safeguarding religious freedom.

Barry Lynn, the Executive Director is, in addition to being a lawyer, an ordained minister of the United Church of Christ.
I would hope that all of us would agree that the F... (show quote)

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Jul 18, 2014 03:19:00   #
Bill Coleman
 
Frankly, the left's standard response of deny, distract, ridicule and ignore the truth is boring and not worth responding to.

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Jul 18, 2014 04:07:51   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
GeorgeH wrote:
I would hope that all of us would agree that the First Amendment separation of church and state is fundamental to the ideals of our country.


I wouldn't because it's untrue.

Quote:
Religion is be a private matter. No where in the Constitution is God or Jesus mentioned, nor is religion, save to assert that a religious test is never to be required to hold public office.


Yes...what one believes is personal but the idea that God must be specifically mentioned in the Constitution or it has nothing to do with Christianity is also illogical.


Of course a person's religious bent isn't a requirement for public office but you are conflating several things here...very illogical reasoning to say the least.


The constitution merely prohibits the government from establishing a "state religion" that compels people to worship a certain way (ala England where they had just left) and has nothing to do with eradicating every vestige of Christianity or God from government.

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Jul 18, 2014 08:57:38   #
steve40 Loc: Asheville/Canton, NC, USA
 
Quote:
I would hope that all of us would agree that the First Amendment separation of church and state is fundamental to the ideals of our country. Religion is be a private matter. No where in the Constitution is God or Jesus mentioned, nor is religion, save to assert that a religious test is never to be required to hold public office.


This is a reinterpretation of the first amendment, by vile, evil, godless men. And has nothing to do with the original intention. Which was basically to keep the state, from establishing a preferred religion. Which should really have been to keep any other religion, other than mainstream Christianity from taking root in the country.

Which our now high potentate OBUMMER, is doing with Islam. May the people who voted in such a man, be accursed.

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Jul 18, 2014 09:07:48   #
Bangee5 Loc: Louisiana
 
steve40 wrote:
This is a reinterpretation of the first amendment, by vile, evil, godless men. And has nothing to do with the original intention. Which was basically to keep the state, from establishing a preferred religion. Which should really have been to keep any other religion, other than mainstream Christianity from taking root in the country.

Which our now high potentate, OBUMMER is doing with Islam. May the people who voted in such a man, be accursed.


I agree with you up to a point where you say, "Which should really have been to keep any other religion, other than mainstream Christianity from taking root in the country". That is not correct. What's more, it is not right. Freedom to worship is intended for all religions, not just Christianity. If that were true as you say, then the government would be going against what the Constitution says they can not do. It would be the same as establishing a religion. Christianity over other religions. Muslims have just as much right to practice Islam as I have to practice Christianity.

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Jul 18, 2014 09:18:23   #
steve40 Loc: Asheville/Canton, NC, USA
 
Bangee5 wrote:
I agree with you up to a point where you say, "Which should really have been to keep any other religion, other than mainstream Christianity from taking root in the country". That is not correct. What's more, it is not right. Freedom to worship is intended for all religions, not just Christianity. If that were true as you say, then the government would be going against what the Constitution says they can not do. It would be the same as establishing a religion. Christianity over other religions. Muslims have just as much right to practice Islam as I have to practice Christianity.
I agree with you up to a point where you say, &quo... (show quote)


For my part NOT!, in this country. In their own they can do what they want. But America has stated it is a Christian country, so heathen religions should not be allowed here. :)

So when you allow unrestrained freedom to sacrifice chickens, and boil people in oil, you are not a Christian nation. Which I have said thousands of times. You are simply an unrestrained religious polyglot, and in reality nothing.

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Jul 18, 2014 09:25:01   #
Blurryeyed Loc: NC Mountains.
 
steve40 wrote:
For my part NOT!, in this country. In their own they can do what they want. But America has stated it is a Christian country, so heathen religions should not be allowed here. :)

So when you allow unrestrained freedom to sacrifice chickens, and boil people in oil, you are not a Christian nation. Which I have said thousands of times. You are simply an unrestrained religious polyglot, and in reality nothing.


Strongly disagree, freedom of religion is considered to be a human right, one that can not be governed by the state, I think that was the understanding and intent with which the first was written. There is nor should there be a prohibition on Islam in this country but by no means should Muslims be afforded sharia law into our system of jurisprudence.

I guess that you might be surprised to learn that many of the founders were not Christians at all, many were deists.

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Jul 18, 2014 09:25:09   #
New York Steve Loc: St. Augustine, Florida
 
steve40 wrote:
For my part NOT!, in this country. In their own they can do what they want. But America has stated it is a Christian country, so heathen religions should not be allowed here.


That's likely the most ignorant thing I'll read all day.

Where has America "stated it is a Christian country"?

Quote:
So when you allow unrestrained freedom to sacrifice chickens, and boil people in oil, you are not a Christian nation. Which I have said thousands of times. You are simply an unrestrained religious polyglot, and in reality nothing.


Boiling people in oil? What in the Hell are you talking about?

America is NOT a "Christian country"...

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Jul 18, 2014 09:45:51   #
GeorgeH Loc: Jonesboro, GA
 
Bangee5 wrote:
I agree with you up to a point where you say, "Which should really have been to keep any other religion, other than mainstream Christianity from taking root in the country". That is not correct. What's more, it is not right. Freedom to worship is intended for all religions, not just Christianity. If that were true as you say, then the government would be going against what the Constitution says they can not do. It would be the same as establishing a religion. Christianity over other religions. Muslims have just as much right to practice Islam as I have to practice Christianity.
I agree with you up to a point where you say, &quo... (show quote)


Thank you. I wish Steve40 would investigate the sad history of state imposed religion. And perhaps read the constitution.

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Jul 18, 2014 09:53:57   #
steve40 Loc: Asheville/Canton, NC, USA
 
Boiling in oil, may be a little over the top, but then I really don't know what some of the things called religion do.

As far as America being a Christian nation, talk to most Christians, that's what they will tell you. Well all except me, America does not qualify for that. A lot of other stuff, but not Christian.

I fully realize only a few of the constitution singers were Christian, most were Freemason's, and deist. Which means you must believe/accept, there is a higher power. George was a bootlegger, and womanizer. I don't think either!, of those qualities qualify as Christian.

As far as practicing any atrocity you want, and calling it a religion (as in Godly). Don't!, come to my house and try it.

I probably know more about state sponsored religion, than you do. I did not say that the government, should sponsor any particular denomination. But that is should have never sponsored, anything goes heathen religious practice.

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Jul 18, 2014 10:09:42   #
New York Steve Loc: St. Augustine, Florida
 
steve40 wrote:
Boiling in oil, may be a little over the top, but then I really don't know what some of the things called religion do.


The fact that you have to lean on histrionics and exaggeration makes it pretty clear that you already know this is a debate you will not win...

Quote:
As far as America being a Christian nation, talk to most Christians, that's what they will tell you.


LOLOL!!!

Wow. That's stupid. That's like asking a the owner of a steak house who's got the best steak in town...

Quote:
I fully realize only a few of the constitution singers were Christian, most were Freemason's, and deist. Which means you must believe/accept, there is a higher power.


So what? So they believed in a higher power. How does that mean anything?

The founding fathers were pretty smart guys. If their intent was that this be a Christian nation, they would've left little ambiguity on the subject. Instead, it's pretty obvious that they didn't want that, given the fact that "Christianity" and "God" are nowhere to be found in the Constitution...

Quote:
As far as practicing any atrocity you want, and calling it a religion (as in Godly). Don't!, come to my house and try it.


But, see, this isn't only your "house".

And what atrocities are you speaking of? Boiling people in oil? Oh, wait... you already admitted that was a lie. Very Christian of you...

Quote:
I probably know more about state sponsored religion, than you do.


I'm sure you believe that...

Quote:
I did not say that the government, should sponsor any particular denomination. But that is should have never sponsored, anything goes heathen religious practice.


What religion have they "sponsored"?

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Jul 18, 2014 10:10:54   #
GeorgeH Loc: Jonesboro, GA
 
steve40 wrote:
Boiling in oil, may be a little over the top, but then I really don't know what some of the things called religion do.

As far as America being a Christian nation, talk to most Christians, that's what they will tell you. Well all except me, America does not qualify for that. A lot of other stuff, but not Christian.

I fully realize only a few of the constitution singers were Christian, most were Freemason's, and deist. Which means you must believe/accept, there is a higher power. George was a bootlegger, and womanizer. I don't think either!, of those qualities qualify as Christian.

As far as practicing any atrocity you want, and calling it a religion (as in Godly). Don't!, come to my house and try it.

I probably know more about state sponsored religion, than you do. I did not say that the government, should sponsor any particular denomination. But that is should have never sponsored, anything goes heathen religious practice.
Boiling in oil, may be a little over the top, but ... (show quote)


It can be said that America is a MAJORITY Christian nation. That does not make it a Christian nation, in the same sense that Saudi Arabia is a Muslim nation, where Islam is the official, state sponsored religion and all others are suppressed.

And what, in your opinion, are heathen religious practices? Would you include Hinduism and Buddhism, both of which predate Christianity by hundreds of years? How about Zoroastrianism? Taoism? Judaism? Or perhaps heathen religious practices are any not included in YOUR particular version of Christianity? Quakers? Mormons? Unitarian/Universalists?

Since you acknowledge that many of the founders were Deists, did you know that the Deist concept of a higher power is essentially the unmoved first mover of philosophical arguments for the existence of god? Such a power/force/being is basically unconcerned with our petty lives.

Just a thought.....

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Jul 18, 2014 10:12:29   #
boberic Loc: Quiet Corner, Connecticut. Ex long Islander
 
Separation of church and state is not mentioned in the consistution. The first ammendment states-- Congress shall pass no law regarding the establishment of religeon nor the free practice thereof. that phrasing is important. Freedom of not from religeon. As an atheist (of jewish heritage) religious displays.nomatter where they are does not offend me.I feel that people are entitled to their wrong opinion. Oh and by the way please don't offend me simply because I don't subscribe to your beliefs. I find that many religeous people are the most intollerant people on the planet. I do not recall any athiest group killing large numbers of paople who hold different viewsl Can religeous groups say the same thing?

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Jul 18, 2014 10:19:25   #
New York Steve Loc: St. Augustine, Florida
 
GeorgeH wrote:
It can be said that America is a MAJORITY Christian nation.


I wouldn't even go that far.

Perhaps the majority of Americans are Christian, but that's different than saying this is a "majority Christian nation".

I think that's what you were suggesting, but what you wrote could be construed two different ways...

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