Why Grandpa Carries a Gun.
Aug 16, 2013 00:16:25 #
Lucian
Loc: From Wales, living in Ohio
I didn't bring Switzerland into this, someone else did. All I did was make a comment to clarify why guns (rifle) were issued to its citizens. After that heyrob who seems to have nothing but time on his hands to do research, took it upon himself to bring up all sorts of facts about Switzerland and everywhere else in the world, it seemed. Therefore, don't try and put the blame on me for the Switzerland inclusion here.
Aug 16, 2013 02:45:44 #
Tell you what Lucian; you seem to have a real problem with HeyRob; guess what.....no one else around here has a bit of trouble with him; we all think he's a pretty good guy, and an asset to this forum; you on the other hand, in just a short time, have suddenly become a giant pain in the ass! You want to get rid of Rob ? Go BACK to Wales..........I guarantee you, Rob won't follow you.......and I don't think anyone else will either.
Aug 16, 2013 09:01:18 #
Gitzo UH wrote:
HeyRob;
It it wasn't such a risk to some people in NYC, I would gladly support a plan to designate the U.N. Hq as a "nuclear test site"; failing in that, maybe could move their headquarters;
(middle of the Sahara Desert comes to mind)
It it wasn't such a risk to some people in NYC, I would gladly support a plan to designate the U.N. Hq as a "nuclear test site"; failing in that, maybe could move their headquarters;
(middle of the Sahara Desert comes to mind)
I'd like to see the UN building on the Discovery Channel show "Mega-Movers" they could slide the building onto a series of barges, pull it to the middle of the Atlantic, and then capsize the barges. I think it's new resting site would be ideal place for those One World Government twits to meet.
Aug 16, 2013 09:44:48 #
Lucian wrote:
there are loads of gun shows around the country that let you buy guns with out any checks, as much as they are not supposed to
The only rules regarding private sales at gun shows are those imposed by the show sponsor, as for your claim that they "ar not supposed to" is another false claim on your part, on a subject that you obviously know nothing about. There are no laws that require a private individual selling their gun to another private party to do a background check on the buyer. None! If you think you pan prove me wrong, then post the law.
Aug 16, 2013 10:08:39 #
Lucian
Loc: From Wales, living in Ohio
I did not mention private individual to private individual for sales, you did heyrob. I was under the understanding that at gun shows, those who were in attendance as sellers were required to do background checks and/or, reaD THAT AGAIN PLEASE and/or ask for an I.D. of the buyer.
Not having been to any such shows I am not 100% sure of course. So what you are saying heyrob is that at a gun show, the sellers who have tables there are allowed to sell to a private individual with no checks or ID request? Because I stated that I thought these sellers at the gun shows were supposed to ask for an ID and or, again read that clealry and/or do a background check.
Now you say in your post above heyrob, that what I just stated about the ID checking etc. is "A FALSE CLAIM" so just for clarity here, are you still saying that what I said is a false claim? Because if the sellers at a table at these gun shows ARE supposed to check ID of a buyer and/or do a background check, then you own me an apology.
As for Ditzo uh comments, I have no problem with Heyrob, it is simply that he wishes to throw back somewhat attacking comments to almost everything I have posted. I have no problem with him, it is simply a discussion. Why do you seem to feel I have a problem with him?
And should I have a problem with anyone, I don't go running back to anywhere, I stand my ground and have the discussion. Is this running away thing something that maybe you do when you have a problem with someone? Because such an attitude never entered my mind, yet it seems that this is what you think should be done when you have a problem otherwise you would not even have thought about such a thing.
Not having been to any such shows I am not 100% sure of course. So what you are saying heyrob is that at a gun show, the sellers who have tables there are allowed to sell to a private individual with no checks or ID request? Because I stated that I thought these sellers at the gun shows were supposed to ask for an ID and or, again read that clealry and/or do a background check.
Now you say in your post above heyrob, that what I just stated about the ID checking etc. is "A FALSE CLAIM" so just for clarity here, are you still saying that what I said is a false claim? Because if the sellers at a table at these gun shows ARE supposed to check ID of a buyer and/or do a background check, then you own me an apology.
As for Ditzo uh comments, I have no problem with Heyrob, it is simply that he wishes to throw back somewhat attacking comments to almost everything I have posted. I have no problem with him, it is simply a discussion. Why do you seem to feel I have a problem with him?
And should I have a problem with anyone, I don't go running back to anywhere, I stand my ground and have the discussion. Is this running away thing something that maybe you do when you have a problem with someone? Because such an attitude never entered my mind, yet it seems that this is what you think should be done when you have a problem otherwise you would not even have thought about such a thing.
Aug 16, 2013 11:08:26 #
Lucian wrote:
heyrob wrote:
" I have no way of knowing how other shows around the country operate, but I would suspect it's a similar scenario. So again, your argument just doesn't hold water."
What the heck are you talking about, if you don't know about other shows then it is foolish to assume that everywhere else would be like your shows. Furthermore, you have absolutely no idea if some people at your shows are doing under the table deals with others who wish to buy guns.
" I have no way of knowing how other shows around the country operate, but I would suspect it's a similar scenario. So again, your argument just doesn't hold water."
What the heck are you talking about, if you don't know about other shows then it is foolish to assume that everywhere else would be like your shows. Furthermore, you have absolutely no idea if some people at your shows are doing under the table deals with others who wish to buy guns.
Heyrob:
My mistake I suppose I should have said "I have no way of knowing about every gun show in the country" I do have experience with several here on the west coast. and once again you display your total ignorance of the facts on the subject.
I have been to gun shows in Washington, Oregon, and California, I purchased a gun a couple years ago in Oregon, and was put through the NICS background check at the show. A good friend and I went to one in California last year, where he purchased a rifle, and in his case NICS placed a 3 day hold on the sale, so he then had to bear the extra expense of having it shipped from CA to Washington and paying the processing and shipping fees to the FFL dealers who shipped and received the gun, plus Washington added sales tax on the gun when he picked it up here. The end result was it ended up casting more than if he just bought the same gun here. Hardly sounds like the process is a walk in the park does it? The point is you claim that itÂ’s too easy to buy or sell a gun, and I say the epitome of ignorance is debating a subject you obviously know nothing about.
Lucian wrote:
I am positive that many of the other people involved at the shows that were shown on TV, where dealers were willing to sell a gun with no proof of ID of the buyer nor checks, were also sure that such a thing was NOT going on at their gun show. Therefore, when it comes right down to it you have no real idea what really goes on even at the shows you are involved with other than yourself and the ones immediately around you at the show.
I am positive that many of the other people involved at the shows that were shown on TV, where dealers were willing to sell a gun with no proof of ID of the buyer nor checks, were also sure that such a thing was NOT going on at their gun show. Therefore, when it comes right down to it you have no real idea what really goes on even at the shows you are involved with other than yourself and the ones immediately around you at the show.
Heyrob:
Still more proof that you speak but know nothing about what you are talking about. If those sellers on the TV show you saw were licensed dealers and tried to sell a gun "under the table" as you suggest, they would lose their FFL license and be put out of business. Why would anyone who has gone through the hell of obtaining an FFL risk it in that manner? It makes no sense, the dealers you saw on TV were undoubtedly private sellers and therefore under no legal obligation to do any sort of background check.
Lucian wrote:
you always mis quote and then run off at the mouth like someone who has a six pack up in his head but lacks the little plastic thingy that holds it all together. I CLEARLY stated "like e-bay possibly" did you read that this time, I will say it again POSSIBLY, and I included possibly because I was not sure.
and
You ALWAYS seem to choose only the words that will allow you to change the whole meaning of someone's post to suit your own silly little childish argument.
you always mis quote and then run off at the mouth like someone who has a six pack up in his head but lacks the little plastic thingy that holds it all together. I CLEARLY stated "like e-bay possibly" did you read that this time, I will say it again POSSIBLY, and I included possibly because I was not sure.
and
You ALWAYS seem to choose only the words that will allow you to change the whole meaning of someone's post to suit your own silly little childish argument.
Are you really this big an idiot or are you just playing one on here? Let's take this from the top and see if I can make your pea brain understand. Back on page 8 you said "Regarding heyrob's post about gun checks, there are loads of gun shows around the country that let you buy guns with out any checks, as much as they are not supposed to and then there are other ways such as Craig's list and maybe ebay as well as many other ways to get guns with no checks at all as long as you have the money, I'm sure. There is your full quote, to which I replied "Craigslist, like eBay does not allow gun sales, so more lies from you." I was plainly stating that you said that you could buy a gun on Craigslist, which is a lie, and I simply corrected your "maybe eBay" statement at the same time. So please explain how I twisted your words? I simply corrected your contention that you can buy or sell guns on either site. So who is the pin head?
Lucian wrote:
And once again just for you... no where on here have I stated that I am for or against guns and the laws that pertain to it, so give up on that stupid argument as well because you have no idea.
And once again just for you... no where on here have I stated that I am for or against guns and the laws that pertain to it, so give up on that stupid argument as well because you have no idea.
Oh really, so comments like "If the person did not have the gun readily at hand in the first place studies have shown that they are less likely to go through with suicide"
or
"The ease by which almost anyone in the USA can obtain any kind of gun is soooo far removed from the difficulty the average citizen in Switzerland would come up against, trying to get even the simplest of guns that there is no way that any intelligent mind would even think about doing a comparison between between the two countries." (Which BTW showed to be another big falsehood by you)
or, and I just love this one...
"If those law abiding people who got their guns stolen for what ever reason... did not have a gun in the first place, then the criminals would not have had a gun to steal. "
This is perhaps the stupidest remark I've ever read on here, but I think the above examples of direct quotes earlier in this thread show a definite anti gun sentiment on your part. Perhaps it is the fact you're from Wales and don't have the deep seated love and respect for the Constitution that that majority of Americans do that you don't place as much value on the Bill of Rights that those of us who were born and raised here do. Let me comment on one last thing from you...
Lucian wrote:
There is clearly no point in even bringing you guys into any further conversations, the rest of the readers here can see through your very blinkered(what the hell is blinkered?) views. It is interesting how reading posts on here can tell you a lot about a person's education level, or lack of it.
There is clearly no point in even bringing you guys into any further conversations, the rest of the readers here can see through your very blinkered(what the hell is blinkered?) views. It is interesting how reading posts on here can tell you a lot about a person's education level, or lack of it.
Very true, since you seem to be in a minority on this thread, and you make some of the dumbest remarks posted, you clearly do not posses the intelligence or education level to play with the big dogs. Someone once said that "Hell is a place where there is no reason" and you sir have been dragging us all through hell for four days now.
Aug 16, 2013 13:04:30 #
Lucian wrote:
I was under the understanding that at gun shows, those who were in attendance as sellers were required to do background checks and/or, reaD THAT AGAIN PLEASE and/or ask for an I.D. of the buyer.
Well, I continue to show the world that you don't understand what you are talking about as though you were an expert. So one more time: [b "There are no laws requiring a background check for private sales, not even at a gun show."[/b] now you go back and "READ THAT AGAIN".
Lucian wrote:
Not having been to any such shows I am not 100% sure of course.
So why do you keep debating a subject you admit to knowing nothing about?
Lucian wrote:
So what you are saying heyrob is that at a gun show, the sellers who have tables there are allowed to sell to a private individual with no checks or ID request? Because I stated that I thought these sellers at the gun shows were supposed to ask for an ID and or, again read that clealry and/or do a background check.
So what you are saying heyrob is that at a gun show, the sellers who have tables there are allowed to sell to a private individual with no checks or ID request? Because I stated that I thought these sellers at the gun shows were supposed to ask for an ID and or, again read that clealry and/or do a background check.
Okay let me try to educate you one more time, so please pay close attention. There are two types of vendors at these shows, licensed gun dealers, and private sellers. The FFL (Federal Firearms Licensed) dealers must conduct business there just as they would within their place of business, all the paperwork, full background checks, collect sales tax (if any), etc. The private sellers may as well be sitting at a table in their driveway, a buyer walks up looks at the merchandise, if he's interested they agree on a price and the transaction takes place.
Now there are differences between shows, at the shows for my club the only extra requirement is that you are a member of the club, and most sellers will not even let you touch a gun if you don't have an ID badge on. Another show here in Washington, that I attend frequently, requires the private sellers to fill out a small form that includes both seller and buyer name, address, and phone number, plus the buyers drivers license # and the serial number of the gun. The seller keeps a copy, and the buyer must show his copy to security on the way out.
So there you have it, every show I have ever attended has some sort of security and requirements for showing either membership or ID. Even though there are no laws against it, some private sellers as well as dealers, will not sell to out of state buyers either. So your contention that even at gun shows it's a walk in the park is false. Most gun sellers be it private or business, do take precautions, many beyond the minimum requirements to insure that the buyers are not legally prohibited from owning a gun. After all we wouldn't want a gun we sold to end up being used in a crime. While private sales are not as closely regulated, on the other hand I don't have to do a background check on someone buying my used car to be sure they haven't been barred from driving because of multiple drunk driving arrests, so why should another perfectly legal piece of property be any different?
Aug 16, 2013 13:26:47 #
Lucian
Loc: From Wales, living in Ohio
heyrob wrote:
"While private sales are not as closely regulated, on the other hand I don't have to do a background check on someone buying my used car to be sure they haven't been barred from driving because of multiple drunk driving arrests, so why should another perfectly legal piece of property be any different?"
Well that is a rather stupid statement because I am sure even gun lovers would feel there is a big difference selling a gun to someone than selling a car. Yes you could sell to a drunk and maybe they would get drunk again and run someone down but there is a huge difference to that than selling a gun to someone who may then in the heat of an argument, decide to shoot someone. I can't believe you even think these two things are the same. You can secretly carry your gun into anywhere that you can get away with it and shoot someone, but you can't drag your car into someplace if you are intent on running them down, so don't even waste our time comparing car sales to gun sales.
As for your quotes about guns you posted, those are all comments on particular things that were said and they are facts. A gun crazy person could equally make the same comments so you can not draw a conclusion about such a thing just for addressing a comment with another post. No where have I said I hate guns or am against gun ownership so stop trying to make things up or imagine what I think on the gun issue because you have no idea.
My comment... "If the person did not have the gun readily at hand in the first place studies have shown that they are less likely to go through with suicide" is simply a known and quoted fact. Are you trying to tell us all that there are no know studies that have stated this fact??? Are you also trying to tell us that this does not make sense as a statement?
Do you really not believe that if someone was in a particular mental state that they felt they wanted to shoot themselves right then and there, that if they did not have a gun to hand and had to go home and sleep on the thought, that possibly the next day they would have a change of heart on wanting to end their life?
Because if you agree that it is a possibility they may make a different choice the following day, then you can not disagree with the statement. However it makes no difference because you and I both know that such studies exist and have come to those conclusions.
"While private sales are not as closely regulated, on the other hand I don't have to do a background check on someone buying my used car to be sure they haven't been barred from driving because of multiple drunk driving arrests, so why should another perfectly legal piece of property be any different?"
Well that is a rather stupid statement because I am sure even gun lovers would feel there is a big difference selling a gun to someone than selling a car. Yes you could sell to a drunk and maybe they would get drunk again and run someone down but there is a huge difference to that than selling a gun to someone who may then in the heat of an argument, decide to shoot someone. I can't believe you even think these two things are the same. You can secretly carry your gun into anywhere that you can get away with it and shoot someone, but you can't drag your car into someplace if you are intent on running them down, so don't even waste our time comparing car sales to gun sales.
As for your quotes about guns you posted, those are all comments on particular things that were said and they are facts. A gun crazy person could equally make the same comments so you can not draw a conclusion about such a thing just for addressing a comment with another post. No where have I said I hate guns or am against gun ownership so stop trying to make things up or imagine what I think on the gun issue because you have no idea.
My comment... "If the person did not have the gun readily at hand in the first place studies have shown that they are less likely to go through with suicide" is simply a known and quoted fact. Are you trying to tell us all that there are no know studies that have stated this fact??? Are you also trying to tell us that this does not make sense as a statement?
Do you really not believe that if someone was in a particular mental state that they felt they wanted to shoot themselves right then and there, that if they did not have a gun to hand and had to go home and sleep on the thought, that possibly the next day they would have a change of heart on wanting to end their life?
Because if you agree that it is a possibility they may make a different choice the following day, then you can not disagree with the statement. However it makes no difference because you and I both know that such studies exist and have come to those conclusions.
Aug 16, 2013 13:34:55 #
Lucian
Loc: From Wales, living in Ohio
Heyrob also posted this quote from me:
"The ease by which almost anyone in the USA can obtain any kind of gun is soooo far removed from the difficulty the average citizen in Switzerland would come up against, trying to get even the simplest of guns that there is no way that any intelligent mind would even think about doing a comparison between between the two countries."
From the above statement by me he thinks this means I am a gun hater. How in the world can you possibly draw such a conclusion from this statement? Your fantasy of an imagination never ceases to amaze me. I was making a statement and a factual one at that. They do not have the gun shows in Switzerland that they constantly have here in the USA. It is not possible for the Swiss to buy an assault gun from a catalog via mail order from a Swiss company as it is here. They do not have the rampant gun deaths every week by criminals that you have here in the USA, so how in the world can you say this regarding that comment:
Heyrob wrote, regarding my comment about comparing the USA to Switzerland regarding guns and gun laws:
"(Which BTW showed to be another big falsehood by you)."
How the heck is that a falsehood?
"The ease by which almost anyone in the USA can obtain any kind of gun is soooo far removed from the difficulty the average citizen in Switzerland would come up against, trying to get even the simplest of guns that there is no way that any intelligent mind would even think about doing a comparison between between the two countries."
From the above statement by me he thinks this means I am a gun hater. How in the world can you possibly draw such a conclusion from this statement? Your fantasy of an imagination never ceases to amaze me. I was making a statement and a factual one at that. They do not have the gun shows in Switzerland that they constantly have here in the USA. It is not possible for the Swiss to buy an assault gun from a catalog via mail order from a Swiss company as it is here. They do not have the rampant gun deaths every week by criminals that you have here in the USA, so how in the world can you say this regarding that comment:
Heyrob wrote, regarding my comment about comparing the USA to Switzerland regarding guns and gun laws:
"(Which BTW showed to be another big falsehood by you)."
How the heck is that a falsehood?
Aug 16, 2013 13:38:04 #
Lucian
Loc: From Wales, living in Ohio
There are plenty of readers here that are sitting there quietly, many are afraid to post because they don't want to get in a stupid little argument with any of the three musketeers, so that is why you are not hearing them.
Aug 16, 2013 13:43:34 #
heyrob...
Quoting yourself: "So please explain to me how the present system is lacking in some way?"
This way pal:
Sales at gun shows mandate no background checks in many states unless the sale is made by a registered firearms dealer. Any criminal or nut case can otherwise purchase a deadly weapon and avoid the fail safe data base entirely.
Check it out:
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/gun-show-firearms-bankground-checks-state-laws-map.html
I just renewed my carry permit for another 5 years with my local sheriff (a close friend) and was still subjected to yet another background check and I have absolutely no problem at all with that.
In fact, the only people who do have a problem are paranoids who imagine they're being chased by black helicopters.
As for joining your"oathkeepers" no thanks.
I've sworn an oath twice...both times to my country and its constitution. I have no need to swear any oath to my God and country through some third party.
Quoting yourself: "So please explain to me how the present system is lacking in some way?"
This way pal:
Sales at gun shows mandate no background checks in many states unless the sale is made by a registered firearms dealer. Any criminal or nut case can otherwise purchase a deadly weapon and avoid the fail safe data base entirely.
Check it out:
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/safety-justice/gun-show-firearms-bankground-checks-state-laws-map.html
I just renewed my carry permit for another 5 years with my local sheriff (a close friend) and was still subjected to yet another background check and I have absolutely no problem at all with that.
In fact, the only people who do have a problem are paranoids who imagine they're being chased by black helicopters.
As for joining your"oathkeepers" no thanks.
I've sworn an oath twice...both times to my country and its constitution. I have no need to swear any oath to my God and country through some third party.
Aug 16, 2013 14:13:09 #
matt thomas wrote:
I've sworn an oath twice...both times to my country and its constitution. I have no need to swear any oath to my God and country through some third party.
I've sworn an oath twice...both times to my country and its constitution. I have no need to swear any oath to my God and country through some third party.
THEN KEEP IT!
Aug 16, 2013 14:27:14 #
I do keep my oath and one way is by opposing assholes like you and everything anti-American thing you stand for.
Aug 16, 2013 15:19:57 #
Lucian
Loc: From Wales, living in Ohio
Gitzo and Heyrob...
Well it seem your theory that everyone on here are on your side is crumbling. As I have said, you three musketeers attack all others who don't think like you so you keep them at bay. Luckily not everyone is willing to sit back and listen to your ranting and looky here, it came from a gun owner. So your silly theory that every gun owner is with you and all others are against you has crashed to the ground.
You guys keep it up and maybe you will find a few others are tired of your rantings and will also speak up to put you in your place. I suggest you guys give it a rest.
Well it seem your theory that everyone on here are on your side is crumbling. As I have said, you three musketeers attack all others who don't think like you so you keep them at bay. Luckily not everyone is willing to sit back and listen to your ranting and looky here, it came from a gun owner. So your silly theory that every gun owner is with you and all others are against you has crashed to the ground.
You guys keep it up and maybe you will find a few others are tired of your rantings and will also speak up to put you in your place. I suggest you guys give it a rest.
Aug 16, 2013 15:32:42 #
matt thomas wrote:
I do keep my oath and one way is by opposing assholes like you and everything anti-American thing you stand for.
Oh yeah, so you sink to childish name calling? Typical of those who can't debate like an adult. I have no inclination to waste my time on someone with the maturity of a third grader and the intelligence of a mushroom. Take a hike.
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