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Posts for: bclaff
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Jan 17, 2021 00:35:15   #
hjkarten wrote:
Dear WClaff,
Let's decompress the intensity of this conversation. I meant you no offense in my short "lecture".
I won't try to address all your points in one reply. ... I find your website with lots of MTF charts extremely useful. Thanks for the work that goes into that.
...
And don't be so quick to disparage people you don't know.
regards,
Harvey

Harvey,
You still don't acknowledge your confusion between bit depth and dynamic range which concerns me because you apparently teach this to others.
If you feel that someone who corrects your incorrect statements to be disparaging I have no control over that.
FWIW, there are no MTF charts at my site; so that confuses me.
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Jan 16, 2021 22:41:49   #
hjkarten wrote:
Amazing statement on your part. The only part of the message that was not of my authorship was my one-line quote from the internet. I repeated the same line for emphasis at the beginning and end of my posting. The balance of my posting was an abbreviated version the same material that I authored and teach to an advanced graduate class in digital light and fluorescent microscopy. For the sake of my students, please let me know which statements were incorrect so that I can correct my lecture!
Harvey
Amazing statement on your part. The only part of t... (show quote)

Without quote marks it was hard to tell.
To me it looked like a long quote. Perhaps you were quoting yourself.
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Jan 16, 2021 22:40:53   #
I didn't read this through initially because of numerous problems I saw as I scanned it.
Now I see one that mostly it's one very wrong concept repeated over and over.
hjkarten wrote:
...
Dynamic range is usually listed in the tech specs of most cameras. Dynamic Range is expressed as "bit-depth".

Dynamic range is never expressed as "bit-depth".
In photography it's typically stops or Exposure Value (EV) and sometimes dB (decibels).
I cannot recall a camera that lists dynamic range in the tech specs.
hjkarten wrote:

Start by thinking of it in terms of a B & W monochrome image. How many gray levels can you capture? If it is a silhouette, it is a simple black and white, no intermediate gray levels. It is a simple black or white pixel. If you now shift to a camera with ever increasing gray level, the "bit-depth" increases.
In order to understand what the camera companies mean when they report that a camera has 8, 10, 12, 14 or 16 "bit--depth", you have to learn about how to count in binary....
br Start by thinking of it in terms of a B & ... (show quote)

Continued confusion about bit-depth and how it related to dynamic range.
If you intend to talk about "gray levels" then you're talking about tonal range not dynamic range.
hjkarten wrote:

...
Early sensors could only detect 3 or 4 bits. ...

More on bit-depth.
I'm unaware of any consumer camera with a bit-depth of less than 8.
hjkarten wrote:

Modern cameras on the market gradually improved their sensors and were able to detect 10, then 12, and currently 14 bits. What does that mean in practical terms? If 8 bits allows 256 steps of gray, then 9 bits = 512, 10 bits = 1024 gray levels, 11 bits = 2048 gray levels, 12 bits = 4,096, 13 bits = 8,192 gray levels, and 14 bits = 16,384 gray levels. The next generation of sensors will surely move to 16 bits. ...

Even more on bit-depth. And confusion with tonal range.
FWIW, 16-bit sensors have been around for a while.
hjkarten wrote:

But this is all about gray levels. How do I get color?
Each color is given a separate channel - (I am simplifying this a bit). So, a modern camera with high DYNAMIC RANGE has 14 bits of Red, 14 bits of Green and 14 bits of blue. This is summarized as "14 bits Dynamic Range Per CHANNEL".

Still following the fundamentally wrong concept of confusing bit-depth with dynamic range.
hjkarten wrote:

... It also explains why your RAW image allows you to correct a wider range of exposure and color temperatures.

Right.
hjkarten wrote:

When you convert your RAW image to JPG for printing or sharing on the internet, you convert the 14 bit RAW image to 8 bits. Once you do that, there is no way to go back to a higher bit level. (It is called "quantizing" the image. More about that on another occasion).

Actually that's demoasicing as well as other things like the power function and tone curve.
Quantization is what happens when the Analog to Digital Converter (ADC) converted the analog voltage to a discrete integer value. Perhaps you consider the reduction to 8-bits as a form of quantization.
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Jan 16, 2021 20:41:51   #
hjkarten wrote:
Which posting are you referring to? Please clarify, and which statements are "flatly wrong"?
regards,
Harvey


It was a long post where you quoted material that at length.
Since you didn't author it I see no point in debating it with you.
I simply caution you and others to pay no attention to it.
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Jan 16, 2021 19:04:59   #
Not worth the read considering that some of it is flatly wrong.
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Jan 16, 2021 17:23:27   #
Hanson wrote:
I applaud the long but thorough answer EVEN THOUGH the initial question is for a short answer for the most important factor with respect to DR. Therefore in general I would say large pixel size favors lower noise level and higher DR ( a simple answer for most layman?).


However, that is not photographically true.
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Jan 16, 2021 17:14:45   #
miteehigh wrote:
Several camera manufacturers are now stating the dynamic range in their specs. The Canon R5 and the Leica Q2 mono are a couple of cameras with increased and extensive dynamic range. I don't own either of those cameras and am beginning to explore HDR bracketing and tone mapping as one way to extend dynamic range and then converting those images to black and white (my output preference) in post.


I've never seen a clear statement of what type of dynamic range they are using.
So these values are of limited usefulness since you can't know if you're comparing "apples to apples"
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Jan 16, 2021 12:51:55   #
bleirer wrote:
Since you are here, can explain what low light ISO and low light ev means in your pdr chart?


I think it's described in the Further Reading but Low Light ISO is the ISO setting at which you get a PDR of 6.5 and Low Light EV is that ISO expressed as stops which is better for comparisons.
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Jan 16, 2021 11:47:10   #
gvarner wrote:
What determines the dynamic range in a sensor? Is it just the number of pixels and the sensor dimensions? I don’t recall seeing dynamic range info featured in camera specs, e.g. +- 5 stops. Thank you for you thoughts.


You may not realize this but the term "dynamic range" is ambiguous in this context.

Dynamic range is a generic term that is a logarithm of the ratio of a high value and a low value.
In photography that logarithm is usually base 2 (EV or stops).
Sometimes it's base 10 (dB or decibels, for example audio specs).

The high value is the "brightest" signal that can be recorded.
But there are some fine points regarding linearity and where the Analog to Digital Converter (ADC) clips which we will ignore.

The low value is not always the same thing.

I call the dynamic range of an individual pixel on the sensor Engineering Dynamic Range (EDR).
"Engineering" because this is the type of value you might find on a sensor specification sheet.
The low value in this case is read noise. Read noise is the standard deviation of the signal recorded in the absence of light.

DxOMark screen dynamic range is EDR.

DxOMark print dyanmic range (also Landscape score) is EDR that has been normalized as if the sensor is 8MP

PhotonsToPhotos Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) uses a different criteria to establish the low value.
That criteria incorporates the Circle Of Confusion (COC), standard viewing conditions, and a minimum Signal to Noise Ratio (SNR).

Note that this is scene dynamic range as captured in the linear raw data.
After the power function (gamma) and a tone curve the dynamic range is compressed into a smaller range.
So it's entirely possible to take 14 stops of linear dynamic range and produce a 10 stop (for example) output image.

Also note that except for EDR these measures are independent of pixel size.
Pixel size has very little affect on dynamic range per unit area.
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Oct 10, 2020 09:38:45   #
bleirer wrote:
Would there be a benefit to setting the ISO higher intentionally? Lets say there are no motion or dof issues and you just feel like cranking it up? I always operate on the assumption that I want to keep close to base iso. My camera, Canon RP, is not ISO invariant, but it does have Canon's auto lighting optimizer, which can be toggled in dpp4, if that is relevant.


One reason I raise the ISO setting is when using flash in order to adjust the ratio of ambient to flash light; eg. avoiding black/dark background.

Another reason people raise the ISO setting is in astrophotography but that's a specialized case.
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Oct 9, 2020 18:44:33   #
Bobspez wrote:
I've learned recently that noise is not so much a function of iso but of the amount of light hitting the sensor based on the available light and the lens aperture. That's why a shot at iso-1600 can have very little noise but at iso-100 can be full of noise based on lack of light. You get more noise at higher isos because there is not enough light and you are using iso to compensate for it, which always adds noise.

bleirer wrote:
But the higher ISO pushes the metering system to recommend under exposure if the ISO is high, so fewer photons reach the sensor.

While it's true that setting a higher ISO can result in less light being collected this isn't the case when using, for example, manual mode.
The key thing is how much light is collected not whether that resulted from the ISO setting.
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Oct 9, 2020 17:22:00   #
Bobspez wrote:
I've learned recently that noise is not so much a function of iso but of the amount of light hitting the sensor based on the available light and the lens aperture. That's why a shot at iso-1600 can have very little noise but at iso-100 can be full of noise based on lack of light. You get more noise at higher isos because there is not enough light and you are using iso to compensate for it, which always adds noise.


This is true (except for the "adds noise" part, gain doesn't add noise it just makes it more visible).

However, the noise floor is a function of the ISO setting; and extended low ISO settings have the same noise floor as the "true" ISO setting from which they are pulled.
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Sep 30, 2020 22:48:53   #
The Capt. wrote:
When using a lower ISO you decrease sensitivity. In other words lower exposure.


Strictly speaking the sensitivity is the capacitance, so there is either one or two sensitivities, two being when it's a dual conversion gain pixel.

Adjusting amplification, either analog and/or digital doesn't change the sensitivity, only the lightness of the final image.

On the original post; extended low ISO settings have the same sensitivity as the base ISO setting (or sometimes even higher).

Don't confused pixel sensitivity with ISO speed and what happens with exposure (aperture and exposure time).
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Sep 30, 2020 21:38:34   #
So, FWIW, the distinction between current and voltage is as follows.

A charge in electrons is accumulated in a capacitor in the pixel.
That charge is converted to a voltage in the pixel and that is the conversion gain; eg. milli-volts / electron
A dual conversion gain pixel has two different capacitance's switchable through a gate controlled by the firmware.

Downstream, on almost all cameras, this voltage goes through a programmable amplifier and is boosted, even at base ISO to prepare for the Analog to Digital Converter (ADC).

After the ADC you have Digital Numbers (DNs). Nikon usually scales the red and blue channels slightly while leaving the green alone. This is thought to be pre-conditioning that relates to white balance.

At higher ISO settings there can be scaling of all channels. I think this goes back to the programmable amplifier which has a maximum amplification; beyond that later digital scaling is necessary.

Hope this clarifies things.
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Sep 30, 2020 09:27:15   #
The Capt. wrote:
My manual for the Nikon D850 lists a normal range of ISO 64 to ISO 25600 and 3 low settings Lo 0.3 ~ISO 50, Lo 0.7 ~ISO 40 and Lo 1 ~ISO 32 plus 4 high settings. I have read that when increasing the ISO above the base ISO 64 that electric current is increased therefore increasing noise but what happens when decreasing ISO below 64? I would expect it to decrease electric current and reduce noise even more. If so why isn't the base ISO lower than 64. I have taken pictures at ISO 40 and not noticed any degradation of quality.
My manual for the Nikon D850 lists a normal range ... (show quote)

Extended low ISO settings are accomplished by silent exposure compensation.
For example, on the Nikon D850 ISO 32 is exactly the same as ISO 64 with +1 exposure compensation.
This is why extended low ISO settings are more prone to highlight clipping.

It's also why measurements like 18% SNR appear higher, since more light was gathered the SNR increases at a given signal level. I don't consider these measurements useful for extended low ISO.

The best place to consult is DxOMark Measured ISO. Note that Measured ISO is the same for ISO 32 and ISO 64 for the Nikon D850

Another good place to consult, particularly if there are no DxOMark Measured ISO measurements is the PhotonsToPhotos Photographic Dynamic Range. Note the open circles in the attached chart are extended ISO settings which are 1 stop pulls from a the real ISO 1 stop higher.




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