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Posts for: JayB
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Apr 21, 2017 15:20:26   #
amfoto1 wrote:
First, the original Canon EF 400mm "DO" simply did not work well with teleconverters... 1.4X or 2X. The 400mm "DO" II purportedly works a lot better with them, but I don't use it and can't say from personal experience.

My advice is to avoid 2X teleconverters, when possible. For the best image quality use no more than 1.4X.

Teleconverters always work best on prime lenses and less well on zooms... though the IQ produced varies greatly depending upon the specific lens and TC combo.

Canon 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM "II" works very well with Canon 1.4X III and pretty well with 2X III.

Canon 100-400mm L IS USM "II" works well with Canon 1.4X III.

Canon cameras that will autofocus with an f/8 lens & TC combo...

Full frame:
- 1DX Mark II (all 61 points)
- 5D Mark IV (all 61 points)
- 1DX (center AF point out of 61 AF points, four surrounding points "assist", requires later firmware version)
- 5D Mark III, 5DS, 5DS-R (center point of 61 AF points, four surrounding points "assist", 5DIII requires later firmware)

APS-C Crop sensor:
- 80D (27 of it's 45 AF points)
- 7D Mark II (one center point of it's 65 AF points).

Older full frame 1DS models and APS-H 1D models also have some f/8 capability (typically center point only, out of 45 total AF points).

All other Canon cameras are "f/5.6 limited", meaning that when they detect a lens/TC combo that makes for an effective aperture smaller than that, they are designed to turn off AF and force you to focus manually.

Keep in mind that 100-400mm with 2X will be an effective f/11 at the long end (anything longer than approx. 300m in the zoom range). Not only will the AF turn off, but the viewfinder will be heavily dimmed down as well, making manual focusing difficult. Focus Confirmation also will not work, when AF is disabled due to the lens/TC combo. So that's not available to help you manually focus, either.

Some things you can do....

#1. If using a full frame camera, consider supplementing it with an APS-C model, particularly for long lens use. This will be sort of like getting a "free 1.6X teleconverter". By "free" I mean that unlike an actual TC, there's no "light loss". On my APS-C 7D Mark IIs, my 100-400mm II lens "acts like a 160-640mm" would on my full frame 5D model. That makes for versatile, sharp lens and a 20MP image. Cropping a 5D III's 22MP FF image down to the same amount would leave you with only about 9MP... cropping a 5DIV's 30MP down the same would leave you about 12MP image. Not bad, in either case.... but not as good as 20MP! BTW, 7DII's sensor density is almost identical to the 50MP 5Ds-models', except the ISO range of 5Ds/5Ds-R is 100-6400, expandable to 50 and 12800. 7DII's is 100-16000, expandable to 25600. About a year newer than 7DII, 80D offers 20% more resolution with a 24MP image on APS-C, as well as more f/8 capable AF points (27 versus 1 in 7DII). 80D has slower continuous shooting rate (7 frames per second versus 10 fps with 7DII) and it's not as tough or well-sealed a camera, and maybe not quite as fast-handling... But it has same ISO range and many think offers the best APS-C sensor from Canon to date (a wee bit higher usable ISO and a little greater dynamic range).

#2. If using a TC/lens combo that exceeds the camera's AF rating, it's possible to tape up a couple of the contacts on the TC so the camera doesn't know it's installed and will still try to AF. One minor drawback is that EXIF metadata in images will be incorrect... it will only show the lens focal length. This also might effect distance info if using ETTL II flash. And you also should expect AF performance to decrease significantly... more AF hunting and failure to lock on. How good or bad AF works will depend a lot upon ambient lighting conditions, subject contrast, etc. If interested in trying this, Google for more info online. I know I've seen web sites that show which contacts to tape up, but don't have a link handy.

#3. Live View might be helpful if the viewfinder is too dimmed-down for manual focusing. Enabling Exposure Simulation in Live View can brighten the image displayed on the LCD screen. Also, you can magnify the Live View image to check manual focus.

Personally I use the Canon 1.4X II and 2X II teleconverters.

The 1.4X II I use on Canon 135/2L, occasionally on EF 70-200/2.8L IS USM (rarely, there's a lot of loss of IQ on the original f/2.8 version), frequently on EF 300mm f/4L IS USM, EF 300mm f/2.8L IS USM and 500mm f/4L IS USM. I have not yet had occasion to try it on EF 100-400mm IS USM "II" which I added to my kit last year (and use a lot on 7DII). I also haven't tried it on EF 70-200mm f4L IS USM zoom.

I use the 2X II almost exclusively on EF 300mm f/2.8L IS USM, occasionally on my 500mm... never on any zoom. Image quality takes a much greater hit with a 2X.... where there might be 5% loss with a 1.4X.... there's probably more like 15% or more loss to a 2X. But there's huge variation in the degree of loss of image quality, depending upon the exact lens/TC combination.


Canon EF 500mm f/4L IS USM with EF 1.4X II, on Canon 30D (APS-C, 8MP)

The Canon "III" teleconverters are also said to be quite good. Personally I did not see need to upgrade from "II"... In part that's because I simply don't need to use wither with zooms. I have prime lens and TC combos that work very well and make that unnecessary.

I've also heard a lot of good things about the Kenko 1.4X, which are a whole lot less expensive. Their cheaper "MC-4" is quite sharp in the center, some think even sharper than the Canon, but less so in the corners and at the edges. Often some corner softness doesn't matter very much for wildlife photography. But if it does using that TC on an APS-C camera will mostly just use the "sweet spot" of the image area. If you will be using the TC on full frame and want better edge-to-edge and corner-to-corner sharpness, the Kenko "Pro 300" model might be preferable. It's slightly more expensive (though still about 1/3 the price of the Canon "III"!) There are Kenko 2X MC-7 and Pro 300, too... though I don't know how they compare.

If you'd like to compare for yourself, Bryan Carnathian's the-digital-picture.com has both sample images and magnified test shots done with many lenses and lens/TC combinations. You can compare side-by-side there, too... at different apertures, various zoom focal length settings, with and without TC, and on different cameras. For example, http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=972&Camera=979&Sample=0&FLI=4&API=1&LensComp=972&CameraComp=979&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=5&APIComp=2 shows the 100-400mm II wide open performance without any TC at 400mm (left) and with 1.4X III at 560mm (right). Switch the right hand display to 800mm to see how it performs with 2X III. You also can choose smaller apertures to see how it improves and compares. At that link the test shots are all done with 5Ds-R.... just about the most demanding camera available. You may be able to switch both over to another camera model that's more like what you use. (Note: I compared the 400mm "DO" original with 2X II against the 400mm "DO II" with 2X III and the newer combo certainly looks a lot better to me!)
First, the original Canon EF 400mm "DO" ... (show quote)


Wow. Thank you for that. You have the distinction of FINALLY helping me understand the mysterious crop-factor advantage of an APS-C camera. This fabled extra reach when there is no extra reach. I finally gave up asking on this forum. It was inciting riots. Well, maybe not quite that bad. Even seasoned photographers would say that it was just a marketing scheme. One person stated that I just didn't understand. She was correct but it wasn't helpful. Now I GET IT! Moving along, I've spent quite a lot of time on The Digital Image site. Most of the time, the results concur with what one expects. But I'm seeing lots of images with the DO using the 2xIII that are very detailed. Sometimes a little too detailed and I wonder if that's the lens or PP. Anyway, a lot to digest in your generous post. I'd love to trial that lens with my Mark III and with some of the latest high-def model. I'm not that much of a fan of the hi def look so I'm actually hoping that my MarkIII will keep things a little more "vulnerable" with the DO. Another concern is specular bokeh I've noticed. One user of that lens consistently shoots at rather high f/stops even when there's room to open up. I wonder if that's to avoid the bokeh issue. There's no arguing that the new DO produces spectacular images. I've been blown away by many of them. But is it art?
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Apr 21, 2017 14:58:39   #
Architect1776 wrote:
I use the 2XIII on my 100-400mm II and love the combo. Very sharp with imperceptible loss of image quality. Just be prepared to focus manually.


Awesome. Yes, I find myself doing that sometimes anyway. TTL focusing at f11 though. I don't mind manual focusing, but I like to see what I'm trying to focus on. But great to know that IQ is good. I love the 100-400 and would buy the new version for what it does even without any extenders. Thanks for your thoughts and information. Really helpful.
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Apr 21, 2017 14:36:05   #
Nalu wrote:
If you are looking for examples of the 400 DOII with extenders, as others have suggested, you can check out "Regis". Remember though he is using a 5DSR, which many would say is not well suited for wildlife, but he would argue it works fine. If you would like a few examples of the lenses IQ on a 1DX or 5DIV, I have several posts. Here is an example: http://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-447876-1.html. Hope the link works.

The 100-400 II I understand is an excellent lens, very versatile for relatively close wildlife subjects. But with a 2x on it, I would think it's getting a little too slow and you would be limited to only bright subjects unless you start pushing the ISO and begin to affect IQ. Additionally it's my understanding very few bodies (if any) will AF with that combo. I don't think any Canon bodies have full AF function at f/8 except the 5DIV and 1DXII and the 100-400 with a 2x will be greater than f/8 (apparently as someone noted, a software upgrade to the 5DIII allows it to AF at f/8.0). From that perspective, I speculate the 2X converters are designed to work with long primes at f/4 and not the zooms (except for f/2.8 lenses). So, if you are serious about using a 2X converter, I think you need to stick with primes (400 DOII, 500, or 600). Now we're talking big $. You can take the plunge (remember the big Canon primes hold their value quite well) or you could save a bunch of money and and go with a high resolution body (5DIV or 5DSR) with a 100-400 and a 1.4 converter and crop.

If cash is not an issue and you are serious, the best of all worlds in my opinion: 400 DOII and/or a 600mm IS II with converters on a 5DIV or 1DXII. But it is a big investment.

Good luck!
If you are looking for examples of the 400 DOII wi... (show quote)


Thank you! A lot of information in this. I've been checking out lots of your pictures. They are stunning and jaw-droppingly sharp (though one of my favorites is the Harrier at dawn in fog). Are all of the 2017 shots taken with the DO? Your comments about using a Hi-Res body was interesting. BTW, I'm no longer considering the 100-400 IS II for these purposes. I might get one anyway at some point to replace my original version. But I understand it doesn't really answer this particular need. Thank you again for your help.
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Apr 21, 2017 09:21:00   #
imagemeister wrote:
Here are my thoughts ......smaller and lighter is better. That makes the 400 DO THE choice. ( for a prime). Zoom with your feet is easy to say - but much harder in the field. Zooms are far more versatile than primes. I have shot the Canon 300 2.8 W/2X II - and no noticeable degradation ( and I am fussy) - but I do use good techniques and support. Your long lens techniques and management will outweigh the native optical IQ of the lenses regarding final IQ. If you are on a high MP body, cropping if necessary and using pixel enlargement software if necessary trumps using an TC - IMO.
Here are my thoughts ......smaller and lighter is ... (show quote)


Thanks, imagemeister. I agree especially with the smaller lighter statement. This almost makes it a no-brainer for me. Almost. But I don't want any surprises after plunking down the cash. I'm going to look at more pictures. I am perceiving a certain harshness about them that is initially spectacular but doesn't wear well for me. Canon's attempt to heighten contrast may have been overdone (I posit with all due humility). I will enlarge my sample group before deciding. I WANT to like this lens! Pixel enlargement software?? This is a new one for me. I wonder how that works?
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Apr 21, 2017 07:36:28   #
Correcting erroneous information for the DO paired with 5D Mark III in previous post: I was unaware I was looking lens lists for pairing with the 7DII. The 400mm DO IS II isn't listed in the Mark III manual. However, the original 400mm DO is listed. My guess is that it would apply to the new DO as well, same speed lens. Found in Group E. All 61 points will autofocus. All 21 cross-type points are also supported. Dual cross-type points not supported. This goes for the DO and the DO with 1.4x extender. With 2x extender the DO falls to Group G where you get 1 central cross-type focus point, plus 4 surrounding directional focus points. Not selectable. Maybe I'll have to upgrade my body as well.
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Apr 20, 2017 20:36:55   #
The 5D Mark III also received the software update that allows autofocus at f/8.
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Apr 20, 2017 18:57:34   #
The DO IS II is in Autofocus Group B. Since Group A is exclusively 2.8s and lower, this is good.
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Apr 20, 2017 18:57:10   #
mwsilvers wrote:
First, I replied to that note and not to you directly because he mentioned potential IQ issues and I wanted to additionally remind him about the AF issue. Often when people post they refer to the OP so everyone reading it will know who we are referring to. Additionally, I respond to a lot of threads and I often am not familiar with most OPs handles and the specific spelling of them, so it's usually easier and quicker to respond to them as the OP. No offense was intended and none should be taken.
First, I replied to that note and not to you direc... (show quote)


Sorry, see prior post. Your point is taken, but you will know from experience that mine is as well. This place can be rather explosive. Thanks for your thoughts!
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Apr 20, 2017 18:39:50   #
mwsilvers wrote:
Other than possible IQ degradation with the 100-400 II and the 2X Extender, the OP may not be aware that he won't be able to AF even with a newer camera which supports a maximum lens aperture of f/8. On the long end the maximum aperture will be f/11 with the Extender attached.


Sorry for that curt answer. I should have taken a beat before answering. (It has been my experience here that once someone begins to refer to the OP as an OP, the post spins out of control and can become something of a bloodbath.) Anyway, I'm no longer considering the zoom as a contender. Mostly focused on the DO because of its less common technology that has been controversial in prior versions.
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Apr 20, 2017 18:14:55   #
I'd appreciate not being referred to in the third person. This is my post. You can talk to me. Thanks. I'm aware.
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Apr 20, 2017 17:48:23   #
SharpShooter wrote:
May not be important to you, but all sharpness/IQ issues aside, the 500mm and the DO are an f4, vs the zoom. At the technical end, for me, that puts the primes into a faster lens group. With out checking it might be an A group. That means that ALL of the cross focus points in the camera are working, not just some of them and the multi-cross points are activated as well. So the primes will lock focus faster, especially in low light.
To a pro, these are VERY important factors and to me, even more important than IQ because the IQ is gonna be good enough! Always consider that no matter what the IQ is, if the camera CAN'T lock focus then IQ is a useless attribute. That's the ONLY reason that the 400 2.8 even exist!!! Just saying.
SS
May not be important to you, but all sharpness/IQ ... (show quote)


Absolutely important. Also important is the perspective that you kindly lent, especially your comment about IQ is going to be good enough, and to move on to other important issues. Thank you very much. I'm gonna check that DO lens right now.
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Apr 20, 2017 15:08:16   #
sazfoto wrote:
First of all I'm not a professional I just take pictures. I have a canon 70-200mm IS f2.8 and a 2X MKIII. Shot at the LA County Air Show featuring the Thunderbirds. Though I've never thought of venturing out of the 400mm range, the 2X MKII did a good job for me. Shooting RAW I was able to crop the picture closer without too much pixelation. I don't sell my pics and they are mostly just for me and my memories. Your choice depending what you are looking for.


Thanks for your thoughts. For this application, wildlife portraits. I'm also an enthusiast. Sometimes it's difficult to judge what criteria really count for an amateur, as opposed to a professional. And whether, when somebody says that there is a discernible difference between one setup and another, exactly how discernible it is, and whether it will impact my unprofessional needs or my professionally untrained eye. There's no substitute for "seeing" but renting is easier said than done in some areas. There is a photographer in this forum who uses the DO/2x combination with, in my opinion, spectacular results. I've seen photos from the DO from more than one user that seem so sharp as to appear brittle. Also concerned about bokeh issues with this technology. Thanks for your post.
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Apr 20, 2017 12:07:33   #
cmc65 wrote:
Regis.


Thanks! Very helpful.
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Apr 20, 2017 11:45:28   #
cmc65 wrote:
Take a look at member Regis s photos.


I found a "Regis" and a "RegisG". Either one of those? Thanks.
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Apr 20, 2017 11:40:09   #
Has anyone used the 100-400 IS II with the 2x III extender? How is it? I have a chance to buy an old 500mm that would get me to 700mm with 1.4x. Good price but it's a cumbersome lens that has me looking for options. Another thought would be the 400mm DO IS II with the 2x. I can't find many comments on that lens here, with or without the extender. Vastly improved, from what I've read. Would I be right in assuming that the 2x on any lens will deliver noticeable image degradation. Does PP help? Thanks for your thoughts.
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