Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Posts for: bclaff
Page: <<prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 next>>
Dec 29, 2022 18:03:04   #
selmslie wrote:
...

The DR values from Photons to Photos are a little different. Keep in mind that the plots from Photon to Photos are based on the information they get from DxO.

...


At PhotonsToPhotos charts in the section labeled DxOMark Derived use data from DxOMark.
Currently the 5th section on the main page.

But the majority of the charts and data at PhotonsToPhotos are not from DxOMark.
This includes all the charts in the 1st section on the main page.
Go to
Dec 29, 2022 17:57:12   #
selmslie wrote:
...

My view of the floor includes image size. That means that the DR changes depending on how large it is printed, something that nobody else has addressed. ...

More details to follow but the PhotonsToPhotos noise floor is a function of the Circle of Confusion and so it does take image size (and viewing distance) into consideration.
Go to
Dec 29, 2022 17:54:52   #
selmslie wrote:
... I recorded the same low light scene at ISO 6400 by setting the raw bit depth to 12 and 14. This would produce some visible noise and two different raw dynamic ranges. ...

If noise were driven by DR then we should also see a noticeable increase in noise. That did not happen.

More details in a later post but 12-bit versus 14-bit at ISO 6400 with that camera would not have different dynamic range and would not show any differences in the deep shadows.
Go to
Feb 27, 2021 11:35:21   #
TriX wrote:
But it’s not the total light falling on the array, it’s the amount of light per unit area or per photosite. Once you have enough light to max the A/D (set the MSB) from any of the photosites (in the brightest portion of the image), the upper limit of the DR has been set - you can’t produce more output or raise the upper limit by adding more photosites.
Not the upper limit for something like Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) unless you mean more smaller photosites at the same sensor size.
PDR will go up when you are able to collect more light per unit area in the final image as opposed to per unit area on the sensor.
Go to
Feb 26, 2021 19:04:19   #
TriX wrote:
Yes - I read your document. Question: since shot noise is reduced and SNR increases as a larger number of Photons strike a photosite, does a larger number of photosites reduce shot noise by essentially averaging out the random occurrences, and if so, is it a significant contributor to total noise compared to read noise?
Definitely yes for a measure like Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR).
Think of it this way, noise becomes acceptable when the signal rises far enough to mask the noise. That signal carries photon noise with it, even if it's a small amount. You can see this on the Photon Transfer Curves (PTCs) at PhotonsToPhotos. See the attached example. The black dot marks PDR. Read noise alone would be about 2 stop to the left.


Go to
Feb 26, 2021 17:31:48   #
TriX wrote:
I’ll let Bill respond to you, but the fact is that DR and SNR ARE determined by noise (and the resolution and accuracy of the digitizer for digital signals), with any type of received electromagnetic signals - its’s typically THE determining factor. Noise determines the DR/SNR of received/measured Audio, electrical, radio signals and light. You only have to play an old LP or listen to a radio signal to experience that.
The distinction I was making earlier is that DxOMark Landscape DR is based solely on read noise whereas PhotonsToPhotos PDR uses a Signal to Noise Ratio (SNR) where noise is all forms of noise not just read noise (for example photon (shot) noise).
Go to
Feb 26, 2021 17:15:03   #
profbowman wrote:
... I am not sure how or what William J. Claff is actually measuring on his web site, "Photons to Photons," when he is talking about dynamic range,
It would have been better if your sentence had ended here.
profbowman wrote:
but the conclusions seem incorrect to me.

Because your not understanding is why you come to a wrong conclusion.
profbowman wrote:
Also, comparing a full-size sensor output printed on an 8 X 10 paper to a half-size sensor print-out printed also to an 8 X 10 paper, is not good for comparing dynamic range or other pixel-centered characteristics.
It is the perfect comparison if you are a photographer who is ultimately creating an 8 x 10 image and you want to compare how different sensors will perform.
There are other measures at PhotonsToPhotos that are at the pixel level independent of sensor size.

FWIW, the original post clearly refers to the Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) measure at PhotonsToPhotos.
PDR is documented there so your ignorance seems willful (to me).

Respectfully,
Go to
Feb 26, 2021 13:30:32   #
bclaff wrote:

Not true. At DxOMark their dynamic range is based entirely on something called (pixel) read noise and "normalized" for pixel size (resolution).
selmslie wrote:
They only show the DR for full frame but they have two of them, a Screen version and a Print version which is about a full stop higher. But it really doesn't matter what they base it on.
Screen is pixel level read noise and that is what I call Engineering Dynamic Range (EDR). Print is simply the Screen value "normalized" for pixel size. Screen has nothing to do with DX versus FX. DxOMark has no information for crop modes; period.
selmslie wrote:
It's pretty close to about 1 stop (off by less than 0.1 stops) for a DX crop on the D850, D610, Df and Z7. I'd say that's a pretty close correlation.
DxOMark publishes nothing that is relevant for crop modes; period. Any correlation you see is coincidental.
selmslie wrote:
But once you crop the file on your computer the actual proportions are no longer important. The noise gets easier to see but nobody is going to measure that. It's either tolerable, fixable or too much.
Well, actually, I do predict that for cropping DX from FX, and it is helpful to know when comparing.
Go to
Feb 26, 2021 13:20:31   #
bleirer wrote:
In your view can I take it as a general principal that cropping an image, any image from any camera, will result in a loss of dynamic range compared to not cropping?

And would the loss be proportional to ____?

Or are there any generalizations one could carry into the field?

Roughly but not strictly proportional to the area used.
Go to
Feb 26, 2021 13:19:18   #
selmslie wrote:
Take a look at what you published for the D850:

FX DX Stops
ISO 800 8.86 7.81 1.05
ISO 6400 5.93 4.82 1.11
ISO 25600 3.89 2.84 1.05

I didn't look at all ISO levels but the difference is pretty close until you get down to low ISO settings.

The low ISO settings are important and there the difference is as I stated.
For example at ISO 64 11.63 for FX and 10.90 for DX is a difference of 0.73
Go to
Feb 26, 2021 10:43:21   #
The original post:
bleirer wrote:
When I go to the dynamic range section of the photonstophotos website and plot any full frame camera in full frame mode next to the same camera in crop mode, the dynamic range of the crop mode is always less by the same amount at every point.

So the same camera, the same sensor, the same test conditions, the only difference is that one is measuring the cropped area of the same sensor while the other measures the full frame portion of the same sensor.

So why does cropping alone reduce dynamic range?
When I go to the dynamic range section of the phot... (show quote)

The quick answer:
Since you mention PhotonsToPhotos to are talking about Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR).
PDR is measured using a standard final image size and viewing distance (not unlike Depth of Field (DOF))
PDR also uses a Signal to Noise Ratio (SNR) criteria (unlike DxOMark which uses only read noise).
Since the DX image has to be enlarged more than the FX image the SNR is lower resulting in a lower PDR.
Pixel size does not matter.
Also, remember, we're talking about the capability of the sensor and not some specific image of a scene with a particular dynamic range (the horsepower of your car is the same travelling at 10 mph than it is at 55 mph you're just using less of it).
Go to
Feb 26, 2021 10:26:07   #
Canisdirus wrote:
...
Since larger photosites can contain a greater range of photons, dynamic range is generally higher for digital SLR cameras compared to compact cameras (due to larger pixel sizes).

For a measure like PhotonsToPhotos Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) (and even DxOMark Landscape Score) pixel size is largely irrelevant; what matters is pixel performance per unit area.
The differences between sensors come down to differences in how cleanly the pixel data is read out (read noise) as well as differences in something called Full Well Capacity (FWC).
Go to
Feb 26, 2021 10:21:41   #
selmslie wrote:
Dynamic range is measured based on standard sized print at a standard viewing distance. For example, an 8x10 image to be viewed from 10 inches. That's like the basis for DOF calculations.

At PhotonsToPhotos but not at DxOMark.
selmslie wrote:

The visibility of the noise is also judged at a standard gray value. For example, DxOMark uses 18% gray.

Not true. At DxOMark their dynamic range is based entirely on something called (pixel) read noise and "normalized" for pixel size (resolution).
The SNR 18% charts have nothing to do with their dynamic range.
selmslie wrote:

...
The DR doesn't change due to the crop until you enlarge the result to make a standard size print/display. Then it magnifies the noise in proportion to the crop factor.

The same thing happens if you crop the full frame image in the computer to make a standard size print or image.

It also becomes more visible when you pixel-peep since you are no longer viewing a standard sized image from a normal viewing distance.

As noise becomes more visible the DR goes down.

Except that it's not in proportion to the crop factor.
Go to
Feb 26, 2021 10:15:30   #
bleirer wrote:
So agreeing that cropping reduces dynamic range if the image is resized, by magnifying noise, is it possible to make a rule of thumb, even an approximate; for example for every x amount of area cropped you lose y stops of dynamic range?

That is only a rough approximation. The details as to why not are in the article I cited earlier:
DX Crop Mode Photographic Dynamic Range
For example, for the Nikon D850 the drop in Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) from FX to DX is about 3/4 stops while your reasoning would imply something closer to 7/6 stops.
Go to
Feb 25, 2021 20:43:35   #
Ysarex wrote:
... DR is noise limited. Larger sensors are less noisy than smaller sensors primarily because of the difference in total light....

Substantially correct.
Not to derail things but we need to be clear about how apparent noise is as opposed to how much noise there is.
The larger sensor has more noise and more signal than the smaller one; but noise is less apparent because it has a higher Signal to Noise Ratio (SNR).
Go to
Page: <<prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 next>>
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.