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Oct 23, 2022 13:21:49   #
BigDaddy wrote:
Well no, I drive a 21+ year old truck. I know parts are expensive but so far, MUCH, MUCH, MUCH cheaper than buying a new, equivalent truck for 50-60,000 big ones. The biggest issue with my truck was last year when mice or squirrels lunched on some wires that prevented it from starting.

I'm pretty old and have no plans on buying a new camera, but if I do, I'm VERY confident Affinity will have no problem reading them at all. If they decided to FINALLY make me pay for an upgrade, I would be good with that as well, I feel like I'm getting over on them at this point anyway.
Well no, I drive a 21+ year old truck. I know par... (show quote)


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Oct 23, 2022 13:12:44   #
bsprague wrote:
The House never wins if the players leave! Adobe has about 25 million players and estimates are that it could be 30 million in 2023.

It takes some work to read the press when they made the switch. I recall there were three reasons, but I only remember two of them.

First was a piracy problem. It was worldwide and big. The estimates of illegal use were amazing. Can you still get pirated copies of CS6?

Second was about product development. The perpetual model was a boom and bust cash cycle. If there were too few customers upgrading, there was limited funding for the next ongoing development cycle. Monthly rental fees provided the consistent funding to create better products.

I think the third was that most commercial customers preferred rentals. There were tax reasons where monthly "expenses" were better than depreciation charges for capital investments. Although we photographers are important to Adobe, their commercial clients may be more important.
The House never wins if the players leave! Adobe ... (show quote)


And yet when they announced LR 5 some years back at a B&H forum they were loudly booed when they said it was also available alsoas subscription. Hobbyists make a larger part their clientele and should not be forced into a model that is not in their best interests. Any edits I make in the subscription model will disappear unless I make TIFF or JPEG copies. So if I can no longer afford it because of new a new medication I might need, I am Bleep out of luck. So yes the house wins. Of course they could offer a stand alone to those who prefer it like they are still doing with Elements but for some reason they do not. This is a business model that favors the company and not the consumer and if they were losing money the other way I think they need to rethink being in business.
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Oct 23, 2022 12:45:52   #
mikeroetex wrote:
Do you still drive a 20 yr old car? Tried buying parts for it lately? The key phrase in your reply, "Affinity... so far." The day will come when you will have new camera files Affinity can not read. And they will invite you to subscribe to the new service that can.


Actually many people do drive 20 year old cars and friend of mine just had his repaired the other day. Affinity, unlike ON1 or Capture one, has made no subscription alternative, strictly a one time purchase. And despite the plethora of subscriptions they offer, Adobe is still offering Photoshop Elements to buy. Adobe also offers a DNG service for free to upgrade your files. Yes subscriptions seem to be the trend but there are still many alternatives to this model including open source software should you so desire
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Oct 23, 2022 12:24:03   #
Karl's Bird Photography wrote:
Hopefully, somebody already said something about the cost of Lr/Ps compared to the cost of the camera, lens, tripod, etc. A few hundred dollars (several years like a camera) for Lr/Ps when it's as important, if not more, than the camera gear is a steal.


And you are paying for it for the rest of your life as opposed to hardware which is usually upgraded when one can afford it. Make no mistake about the subscription model is great for the companies, who are always getting monthly money, but not so great for the consumer who has more and more bills added to their cost of living. Case in point, I have been using Adobe products for 20 years. Subscription based that would have cost me $2500. But because I upgraded only when needed I spent about $900. The House always wins!
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Oct 23, 2022 12:16:02   #
BigDaddy wrote:
I personally don't like renting anything. I don't rent cars, housing, radio stations etc. I wouldn't call them "EVIL" just a marketing plan I don't like. My brother in law rents all his cars... to each their own.

He nor his rental scheme is not evil, just something everyone is not on board with. Why do opposing opinions have to be evil?


Yes! As I said before they want to tell you how spend your money but if that was reversed they would be most likely saying, how dare you!😎😁 I agree Affinty is a great inexpensive editor, I actually got it on sale for $25!
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Oct 23, 2022 12:08:02   #
Fredrick wrote:
I don’t use PS or LR. Are you saying that PS would destroy an original RAW file?


No, because the photo is edited in Photoshop it must be converted to a TIFF PSD or some other non RAW file. Any changes will saved as that file, the RAW will not be changed. One can have a non destructive edit by saving all the layers but this results in very large files. In Lightroom a set of instructions is placed upon the raw file which does not change the raw file. But those same edits are used to export the finished photo to a JPEG of Tiff leaving the RAW file untouched. You can go back into the LR catalogue and create virtual copies of any file and have different sets of edits. Again the original file is not changed
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Oct 23, 2022 11:17:51   #
BigDaddy wrote:
I didn't say it was weird, I said it seemed weird to me. I fully understand using LR for it's catalogue, it would be impossible to keep track of thousands of photos in your head regardless of age. My methods are exactly the same as your methods, except I don't often use the editor in my catalog app to edit, I just use my editor, the one I use 99.9% of the time. I also don't have a problem re-editing as I always keep the original file and a separate edited copy and the psd file if warranted. My way of course is my way, you can do whatever you like.

I like to hear how and why others do things, one out of curiosity, and two because there's always a chance to learn something. As far as editing goes, I keep hearing LR does some things better the PS? I find that really interesting. Not the catalog aspect, the editing aspect. I guess it just seems weird to me that Adobe would have two products as a package that both do editing, and I'd need to run both editors to get all the [editing] features. To me, it would seem odd. I've always considered PS the premier editor, and hard to fathom LR having editing capabilities superior to PS. I've often heard LR is easier to use, but I never found PS hard to use, and PSE I found a lot harder than PS, due to poor user interface and lack of features.

Anyhow, thanks for your input. I think LR's method to track edits is more than a little interesting. I've on rare occasion failed to save a complicated edit in PSD format, so if LR saves standard jpg edits in it's catalog that would be a good reason to use LR, IMO of course, ymmv.
I didn't say it was weird, I said it b seemed /b ... (show quote)

Photoshop actually predates digital cameras and is very much a graphics editor which can edit photos very well. But there is a lot of legacy controls in Photoshop that most photographers do not need. Lightroom was developed as a catalogue and raw editor for photos only. When it was first introduced it's editing capabilities were modest but good results could still be achieved. With each update it has gotten better but with intro of AI it really is a game changer and many of us rarely go to Photoshop. Of course one can achieve the same results more or less with ON1 and Affinity and not have to pay till the end of their days, but as you say YMMV. I am also puzzled on why they keep making Lightroom stronger with danger that Photoshop is obsolete but I think there enough raster editors that this will not happen soon. It is telling that they do not offer respective subscriptions for just LR of PS but only as the $10 bundle for both. And Adobe continues to update Photoshop Elements updates without a subscription. If you have never used LR try it for the whopping 6 days Adobe gives you to see what you can accomplish.
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Oct 23, 2022 10:40:09   #
First the positive news, the upgrades in Lightroom and ON1 Camera raw are nothing short of astonishing. The AI in both enables one to quickly accomplish edits that were only dreamed of 10 years ago. Now to the negative, those of you who have the subscription should really refrain from telling other people how to spend THEIR money. Many of us retirees are on a fixed income and these various costs do add up. How would anyone feel if I said, "Well if it's so cheap you can pay for mine as well"? I would not presume to do this, simply because it is none of my business how you spend your money. As to to OPs question on why anyone would not want to upgrade, again to each their own. If they are satisfied with their work again that is their business. If one admires a photo they do not ask with what software the end result was achieved, they just like the photo. Subscriptions for software seem to be the trend of now and the future. Of course if the camera companies were to sell you the hardware but the demand a monthly payment to run the software how many of us would just go to Cell phones?
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Oct 23, 2022 09:55:46   #
Peteso wrote:
Agreed that LR v6 users are β€œmissing the boat.” They should probably shift to ON1!😳🀦


I love it! One would think that Adobe was the only software company just because they are the biggest.
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Sep 15, 2022 11:59:22   #
jerryc41 wrote:
With a purchase, we have a choice. The last time I paid for LR was in 2015. I realize I missed out on some features, but apparently, I could live without them. Now I'll have two new programs for about the cost of one year of Adobe.


Yup between Affinity and ON1 Raw one can accomplish as much as in Adobe and not paying till you die. Enjoy the new AI in ON1 it is definitely a game changer! Social Security retirees unite!
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Sep 14, 2022 21:34:26   #
jerryc41 wrote:
They have both subscription and purchase now. I always prefer purchase.


Me too, especially since I am a retiree with a fixed income
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Sep 14, 2022 21:33:17   #
rlv567 wrote:
I hope ON1 never adopts the Adobe approach! Inasmuch as I do NOT need Adobe for anything, I do not use Lightroom/PS, and do not need the plugins. I certainly MUCH prefer to be able to do processing so easily all in ONE application, which now is possible with ON1, which has everything one could need, performed at the highest level available!!! (And it's less expensive, as well.) Interestingly, ON1 is moving faster than any of the others with respect to increasing capabilities and solicits and is responsive to purchaser input. It also has a much BETTER - and easier to use - file handling protocol than Lightroom!!!!! Anyone who will not at least try ON1, really is selling themselves short. There's absolutely no cost for a two week trial of the full program.

Loren - in Beautiful Baguio City
I hope ON1 never adopts the Adobe approach! Inasm... (show quote)


Loren Adobe doesn't upgrade as fast as ON1 because they have no incentive. They have a constant influx of cash from all those subscribers so there is not as much of a need for new customers. ON1 on the other hand seeks to encourage more buyers because they are trying to compete with those not happy with the subscription model. They really have come a long way in a short time. I have no idea if they will eventually go subscription only, but somehow making the plug in option extra makes me wary. I intend to download the trial to see if I still have mouse problems but will probably skip this version for now.
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Sep 14, 2022 10:11:26   #
rlv567 wrote:
As I noted on another thread, the price for ON1 Photo RAW 2023 with the stand-alone plugins, ON1 Plus and 1 TB cloud storage is $149.99, or alternately, $99.99 for the one-time payment, with all capabilities built in. If you choose the one-time payment way, following years are discounted, NOT increased in price!!!!! I just paid $79.99!!!

You must check it out at: https://www.on1.com/products/photo-raw/ to see how good it actually is. ON1 already is very good, but the new upgrades push it to another level - all others will really have to scramble to try to catch up!

Loren - in Beautiful Baguio City
As I noted on another thread, the price for ON1 Ph... (show quote)


You are correct that one gets a discount on upgrading to ON1 2023 to own. But if you look in the comparison chart you will see that this does not include using ON1 as a plug in with Adobe. For that one must $70 extra per plug in or $150 for the whole plug in bundle. The good news is that they offer stand alone or subscription which is a great choice to those who want to decide for themselves if they need an upgrade. Actually Adobe upped the ante last fall with their introduction to AI in Lightroom now ON1 just upped it yet again with even more precise AI. Given their rate of change they could be a viable stand alone very soon. The question is will they move to subscription only or not?
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Sep 10, 2022 15:14:07   #
SteveZas wrote:
By no means was I telling people how to spend their money. My point was if one wanted to be current ( pure choice ) , the approximate $120 a year for photoshop and Lightroom seems comparable to On 1 and it’s continuing upgrades. If so, I wondered what the performance differences were between the two and which was in her better.
I started with Elements 2.0 went to CS 3 and after a couple of years went to CS 5 and stated there a couple of years after they went to subscription. When I did go to subscription the tools had improved substantially as well as speed. I went to On 1 a few years ago also, just to understand the system, and used both. PS was still faster and very efficient. I upgraded a couple of times and still didn’t find an advantage of significance although it is a good program. But now it seems that upgrades are routine. I just wanted to know the differences pro and con between the two. Where were the advantages with either. Ultimately with upgrades the prices really aren’t that much different assuming one stays current.
By no means was I telling people how to spend thei... (show quote)


I think what we are seeing with the upgrades is true competition between Adobe and ON1. Lightroom had a major change last year with their AI introduction and now ON1 is following suit. The thing is here one has the choice of upgrading or not. If one is a pro upgrades are often needed more so a subscription makes sense. For the hobbyist not so much. I have had a couple of versions of ON1 and sometimes I have had problems with controlling the mouse. I recently changed the performance parameters on my PC and now it seems ok . When I had a problem 3 years ago it took them 5 days to get back to me and their solution was very vague. I am really not sure how well ON1 interfaces with Windows since when Windows updates I get problems. Perhaps it works better on Apple but I know not. The nice thing about ON1 is it is kind of a combination of LR and Photoshop but not quite and it's processing feature are quite good but different than Adobe As a plugin for Adobe and Affinty it works well and in some ways it's easier to use for me than Adobe
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Sep 10, 2022 14:15:11   #
rlv567 wrote:
You didn't read what I said, which is:

ON1 does NOT charge extra for the plug-ins, which are included as an integral part of the stand-alone version. If you want actual separate plug-ins for use with some other program, there will be an additional charge.

To have made it totally clear, I guess I should have said that all the capabilities of the plug-ins are part of the stand-alone version - you don't get them as separate entities. If you want them as plug-ins to be used with other software, then you pay extra, because for that, they are actually separate programs. I don't know now, but previously you could buy just the plug-ins without ON1, if that was all you wanted.

Loren - in Beautiful Baguio City
You didn't read what I said, which is: br br ON1 ... (show quote)


I paid for ON1 2011 as a stand alone and it could also be used as a plug in for Adobe and Affinity. Last year they changed that policy. For 2022 you purchased the stand alone but they wanted more for that plug in feature. I still use the 2021 plug in feature with Adobe and Affinity.
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