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Posts for: melueth
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Feb 3, 2019 19:09:16   #
Linda From Maine wrote:
This thread is one of the best reasons to have a PP Forum in my not-so-objective opinion


Agreed! I needed this, and maybe it helped some others!

ML
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Feb 3, 2019 19:08:10   #
selmslie wrote:
There really isn't much wrong with the original image that can be significantly tweaked in post processing without taking it too far.

The real issue is that it was taken on a cloudy-bright day (almost no shadows) and that's why the scene seems to lack mid-tone contrast.

I'm sure you could return to this location on a sunnier day and get a snappier image. The clouds might even be better with some blue sky around them. That will make the B&W conversion more rewarding as you suppress some of the blue light.
There really isn't much wrong with the original im... (show quote)


Selmslie - you are exactly right - the blue tone on that cloudy day predominated this shot. I literally lowered the blue saturation before i even took it into Silver Efex, but it only translated into darker clouds with the contrast. Hopefully we'll get back there soon. It's only a couple of hours away. Thank you so much for commenting!

Marylea
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Feb 3, 2019 19:05:54   #
CHG_CANON wrote:
Looking good, although I agree it crosses now toward overdone. You might still look at brightening the entire frame by adjusting the exposure. Depending on your tool, you might also see how it looks by cutting the black adjustment by 50% in terms of the overcooked aspect. Or maybe, just lowering the contrast slider as it's the fine details that really jump out in this version.


Paul - i worked with those sliders in a big way . . . but nothing seemed to lighten those clouds. The only way i think i could affect that change would be to work in layers, which i really didn't have time to do today (squeezed a 6 mile hike into the mix, and now it's Superbowl time!). BUT . . . i agree - the sky in particular looks a tad overcooked. Thank you for your helpful thoughts and comments - i really appreciate it. Even if i don't come up with a perfect mix on this one, i've learned a lot. Thanks again!

Marylea
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Feb 3, 2019 17:09:33   #
OK, so here's new rendition . . . i did not adjust the clouds as well as Paul had suggested, but i realized that the original image had very dark shadows in the clouds to begin with, and i wanted to bring that out. I managed to bring out the wood grain more in this one, and got rid of the little distraction to the right. Maybe too overcooked . . . ??? Sorry if i'm belaboring this one! Just trying to learn . . .

Marylea


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Feb 3, 2019 16:54:54   #
Linda From Maine wrote:
Marylea, I think your composition is wonderful. I'm immediately drawn into the scene, and I love the b&w idea. Ch_Canon and R.G. have given more excellent information re editing for b&w than I recall seeing previously on UHH in one place. I can't wait to try their ideas myself!

A question for R.G. re this statement "Where you place the extra contrast is the PP editor's choice." I'm thinking dodge and burn. Is that what you had in mind?

Dodge (lightening) and burn (darkening), which can be achieved a couple of different ways (like everything in pp), is used to manipulate small areas selectively. This is often done to help draw our eye through the scene or to bring attention to a specific area or element (or the reverse). UHH user Graham Smith is a master of both subtle and obvious manipulations of that type.
Marylea, I think your composition is wonderful. I'... (show quote)


Thank you so much Linda - your comments introduce other ideas that i'd not considered.

ML
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Feb 3, 2019 16:53:54   #
R.G. wrote:
Instead of the word "flat", my preference is the expression "wishy-washy", which of course explains everything .

As is usually the case it's a question of degree. For some people the whole point of moving to B&W is to bring out the visual drama in a scene. The main way to do that is to add contrast, and for some people it doesn't take much contrast, but for others it needs to be ramped up considerably. There's no right and wrong, but at the same time the words "suitable" and "appropriate" and "tasteful" don't lose their meaning in that scenario.

With just about any adjustment you can think of there will be a point beyond which the effect starts to look excessive for one reason or another, and overcooking is one of the most common mistakes in PP, especially for beginners. Some might argue that it's always a matter of personal preference, but if someone's preferences leave them in a group of 1 they need to consider if perhaps their preferences (i.e. tastes) could do with a bit of refining. Yes I know - it is all relative and it is a matter of taste, but if someone's adjustments look more like mistakes than improvements it's time for them to do a re-assessment of what they want to achieve.

Pushing adjustments is something that can be done for effect, but it's only in specific instances that we want specific effects. What we are discussing here is general guidelines for producing an outcome that achieves the purpose of converting to B&W in the first place.

Any beginner's tastes will be undeveloped compared to those of an afficionado and there's no shame in learning from those who have more experience and skill. The simple fact is good editing produces good results and it's possible for editing to produce results that nobody is going to consider good. I'm going to hazard a guess that nobody wants that second outcome. So maybe it's an oversimplification to say "It's all relative and therefore all outcomes are legitimate".

So are we agreed that some outcomes are desirable while some are not so desirable? So now we can consider what a desirable outcome is (and how to achieve it)....

A common result of adding contrast is that the darks can become too solid and too predominant, so you need to be able to take steps to mitigate that outcome. And the same thing applies to the highlights. One way to do that is to use the Brightness, Whites, Highlights, Shadows and Blacks sliders. However, some prefer the Curves tool. The Clarity tool can be used to add vividness but its effects can quickly become extreme and difficult or impossible to mitigate, so it needs to be used with a light hand, and typically towards the end of the workflow. Sharpening can also be used to increase vividness, but it too can be overdone, and it needs to be done alongside denoise.

Where contrast is concerned, the luminosity spectrum goes from pure black to pure white with all shades of grey in between. That spectrum covers all of the tonal possibilities so we have to work within its limitations. One implication of that is that there's always a limit to how much contrast can be implemented in a B&W conversion, so sometimes we have to choose where on the luminosity spectrum to put the most contrast. Adding contrast basically means stretching the distribution of darks and brights, and since the spectrum is limited, there's always a limit to how much the tonal distribution can be stretched. What we can do is stretch specific parts of the spectrum, which will result in an increase in contrast in that particular part of the spectrum.

Put more simply, once the tonal distribution has been stretched to its limits you can add extra contrast in the darks or the mid-tones or the brights (but at the expense of contrast in the other parts of the spectrum). Where you place the extra contrast on the spectrum is the PP editor's choice, as is the choice of location for the extra contrast. That is part of the creative expression that a PP editor has at their disposal. To that we can add the choice of overall brightness and the overall distribution of brightness/darkness.
Instead of the word "flat", my preferenc... (show quote)


R.G. - lots to consider here, and i thank you for the time you've taken to help me in this quest. I truly enjoy working in the subtleties of B&W, and you are a true encouragement. I need to study this genre more. (Clearly! )

ML
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Feb 3, 2019 16:50:10   #
srt101fan wrote:
Great shot, Marylea. Don't know who said, and in what context, that one of your B&W images seemed "flat". Current photographers (and audiences) generally seem to prefer bold, super-saturated, "in your face" colors. Subtlety and muted colors are out. So it's reasonable to expect them to also prefer strong visual impact in B&W?


Well srt101fan - this seems to be an area of post-processing that brings out a great deal of opinions on the presentation. It's a tad confusing as i attempt to plow forward, so i think that i'll attempt the suggestions given here, but still rely on what my currently inexperienced eye prefers! Thank you for you kind comments!

Marylea
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Feb 3, 2019 15:53:01   #
DWU2 wrote:
I would simply say that a flat b&w photo is lacking in contrast, having a narrow tonal range.


Thank you! My thoughts as well, as i continue to learn this genre.

ML
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Feb 3, 2019 15:52:17   #
fergmark wrote:
Just a comment following Paul's excellent advice. With b/w its often necessary to clip the lights and darks to make it happen, and doing so, with this really nice shot, does the trick.

Thanks fergmark! About to post a re-dux, trying to take into account tips given here.

ML
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Feb 3, 2019 10:22:09   #
CHG_CANON wrote:
This looks great, but doing B&W conversions is more than just "draining the color out". I tend to prefer a high contrast, but I know that's a personal preference. You might consider some / all of the following:

a. Clone out the post that touches the edge of the frame on the upper right side.
b. Increase the 'white' of the image just slightly so the clouds seem brighter.
c. Increase the 'black' of the image just slightly so the grain of the wood shows better.
d. Evaluate the overall brightness of the image, where maybe +0.10 will help the image 'pop', depending on the results of b & c.
e. Consider the white balance, something that seems illogical for B&W. But, if you lower the yellow (lower the temp toward blue), the image becomes more black, white and grey. Changing the temp might accomplish ideas b-d, or may further enhance. Experiment and have a look.
This looks great, but doing B&W conversions is... (show quote)


Thanks for the pointers, Paul - i will definitely try these out. BTW - the draining of color comment was a joke. I took this one into NIK Silver Efex and tweaked a lot of things, including contrast, highlights, and brightness. I am not happy with the wood grain as it stands right now either, so i'm going back in with your tips. Didn't even notice that little post to the upper right - yes! It's got to go! I'm going back in . . . Thanks again!

Marylea
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Feb 3, 2019 10:18:12   #
Bushpilot wrote:
I'm not sure what the experts might think, but I really like this one, nice texture and detail, an interesting and peaceful scene.


Thank you Bushpilot! Still learning!

ML
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Feb 3, 2019 10:17:34   #
RichardSM wrote:
Interesting perspective but I like it. It might be a bit rickety if one walk out on it lol!


Yes - i stayed off this one!! Thanks for your comment, Richard!
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Feb 3, 2019 10:00:34   #
I'm learning a lot just seeing your compositions and treatments, Bob. Thanks for this . . . i love it!!

Marylea
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Feb 3, 2019 09:41:35   #
When i first went colorblind, ( ) i posted a B&W here and was told that it seemed flat . . . i'm tweaking things much more now, and i think i get the definition, but i'm still a little unsteady about it. Is there a good definition of flat as it applies to B&W photography, or is it more intuitive - you either 'get it' or you don't? Here's another that i recently drained the color out of. Thoughts?

Marylea


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Feb 3, 2019 09:31:56   #
R.G. wrote:
Wow - drama! I didn't see that coming . Well conceived and well executed, Marylea.


Well thank you, R.G.!

ML
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