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Why is exposure so confusing?
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Jan 23, 2019 14:32:51   #
Red in Colorado
 
BebuLamar wrote:
It's irony that the US customary measurement system is in fraction with factor of 2 which is the same for exposure.


I never put that together. Thanks. Maybe that is part of why exposure doesn't confuse me. Also, I learned the basics from a long time film shooter and I think that helped.

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Jan 23, 2019 14:49:08   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
Bipod wrote:
It time someone talked about WHY exposure is so confusing.

It's because of the way manufacture's label camera settings. They don't apply base 2 logarithms
consistently.

There are two reasonable rules:
1. Each detent on a control (aperture, shutter, ISO, exposure compenstation) must be EXACTLY
twice (or half) the exposure of the previous detent; and
2 Each should be labeled in integers: ... -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3....

If you do this consistantly, you get the Additive Photographic Exposure System (APEX)
which was standardized way back in 1960 (ASA standard ASA PH2.5-1960) and was used
in industry and by the military (where confusion is not OK).

EC knobs (and menus) generally follow both rules: No compensation is labeled "0". Increasing
exposure by one stop is labled "1". Decreasing exposure by one stop is labeled "-1". Anyone
confused by this? Pretty simple, right?

F-numbers follow Rule 1, but not Rule 2. The sequence 1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4, 5.6, etc. is a lot more
complicated than 1,2,3,4,5... And you don't need to know the actual f-stop ratio unless you are
building a camera.

Shutter speeds are a mess. They follow neither rule. This sequence makes sense:
1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, .... This one doesn't: 1, 2, 4, 8, 15, 30, 60, 125, 250, 500, .....
What's the rule for latter sequence, pray tell?

ISO speeds are given in two different sysems: ASA and DIN. Both follow Rule 1, but only DIN
follows Rule 2. The ISO "standard" is to use BOTH! (Sure sign of a gutless committee trying to
please everybody.) The ASA number isn't even logarithmic. And ASA 100 is DIN 21 -- why 21?
"Historical reasons".

Finally, Exposure values follow Rule 1 but not Rule 2 -- again for "historical reasons".
"Historical reasons" is a polite way of saying S.N.A.F.U.

Exposure is confusing because of the silly, stupid, inconsitent way in which cameras controls
are labeled.

Here's the "Sunny 16" rule in the traditional Tower of Babel system:

At approx. EV 15 and f/16, use shutter speed 1/ASA speed
for example:
At approx. EV 15 and f/16 and ASA 100, use 1/100th sec

(which of course, isn't even a detent on the shutter dial-it only has 125.)

Here the general rule in APEX:

TimeValue + ApertureValue = SensitvityValue + Brightness
E.g., at approx. EV 15:
5 + 8 = 5 + 8

Does this math confuse anybody? Dang simple, if you ask me.
So by subtracting SensitivityValue from both sides:

Brightness = TimeValue + ApertureValue - SensitivtyValue
8 = 5 + 8 - 5

As usual, people are willing to update their hardware and software (= buy stuff) but not their thinking.
Picture a cave man holding a Nikon. "Og like take photos. But Og confused by exposure." No wonder!


For reference, here's the basic system, as standardized in 1960.

APEX SYSTEM (per ASA PH2.5-1960)

Note: this may differ from EXIF Version 2.2.

APERTURE

f-number APEX
1 0
1.4 1
2 2
2.8 3
4 4
5.6 5
8 6
11 7
16 8
22 9
etc.

SHUTTER SPEED

The original APEX standard kept the irregular shutter times: 1, 1/2, 1/4,1/8, 1/15, 1/30, 1/60, 1/125....

In fact, some cameras are already calibrated to 1/16, 1/32, 1/64... Shutters are rarely accurate enough
to tell the difference except at 1/15 <> 1/16.

Nominal Sec. APEX
1 1 0
2 1/2 1
15 1/15 2
30 1/30 3
60 1/60 4
125 1/125 5
250 1/250 6
500 1/500 7
1000 1/1000 8
etc.

FILM/SENSOR SPEED


ASA DIN APEX
100 21 5
200 22 6
400 23 7
800 24 8
1600 25 9
etc.


BRIGHTNESS

Again, the original standard kept the irregular shutter speeds, so it had to have
irregular brightnesses as well.


APEX FOOT LAMBERTS
1 2
2 4
3 8
4 15
5 30
6 60
7 125
8 250
9 500
10 1000
etc.
It time someone talked about WHY exposure is so co... (show quote)
In 1969 I purchased my first adjustable camera, using graduation money. I had graduated from college "with highest distinction" and "with honors in math", but I didn't bother with all this stuff - I just learned to use the built-in light-meter. Please don't complicate what someone needs to know to enjoy photography.

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Jan 23, 2019 14:50:08   #
SteveR Loc: Michigan
 
lonewolf456 wrote:
Totally agree. This back and forth with opinions is destroying my faith, and reason to be a Hog. Keep the questions, and answers simple or else I'm out of here.


Personally, I'm not interested in posts about logorithms and algorithms when discussing exposure, so I skip those posts. I suggest you take my approach.

Reply
 
 
Jan 23, 2019 14:50:41   #
BebuLamar
 
Red in Colorado wrote:
I never put that together. Thanks. Maybe that is part of why exposure doesn't confuse me. Also, I learned the basics from a long time film shooter and I think that helped.


I do noticed because I am more familiar with the decimal system. I had to write a program for my programmable calculator to do math with those fractions.

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Jan 23, 2019 15:28:53   #
lonewolf456
 
Being a novice in photography I'm here to learn from more experienced photographers, not to be the recipient of smear responses. Such as yours for example.

Reply
Jan 23, 2019 15:52:55   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
lonewolf456 wrote:
Being a novice in photography I'm here to learn from more experienced photographers, not to be the recipient of smear responses. Such as yours for example.

You probably need to learn how to use 'Quote Reply', since this has no meaning apart from context provided by the comment this is meant to be a reply to.

Reply
Jan 23, 2019 16:29:19   #
Bipod
 
Thanks to everyone for their responses. I appreciate the good comments from all sides.

Perhaps I should clarify: I'm not trying to get anyone to switch to APEX (although it would be
nice to have the option of buying an APEX camera). My reason for creating this thread was to
post the simplest forms of the exposure equation:

TimeValue + ApertureValue = SensitvityValue + Brightness

Brightness = TimeValue + ApertureValue - SensitivtyValue

Photographers use the concepts of "stops" (base 2 logarithms) all the time.
By converting everything to log2 the equation become simple artithmetic.
In other words, I posted this not because it is complex, but because it's the
simplest way to express the exposure equation.

Other posters are much better than I am at explaining things to beginners.
This post was to clarify what needs to be explained--as well as to explore
an interesting alternative way of labeling camera controls that actually
exists as ASA/ISO standard.

Sometimes math doesn't make things more complex, it makes them simpler.
Doing photography without the concept of "stop" would be confusing, indeed!

Reply
 
 
Jan 23, 2019 16:33:11   #
BebuLamar
 
Bipod wrote:
Thanks to everyone for their responses. I appreciate the good comments from all sides.

Perhaps I should clarify: I'm not trying to get anyone to switch to APEX (although it would be
nice to have the option of buying an APEX-labeled camera).

My reason for creating this thread was to post the simplest forms of the exposure equation:

TimeValue + ApertureValue = SensitvityValue + Brightness

Brightness = TimeValue + ApertureValue - SensitivtyValue

Photographers use the concepts of "stops" (base 2 logarithms) all the time.
By converting everything to log2 the equation become simple artithmetic.
In other words, I posted this not because it is complex, but because it's the
simplest way to express the exposure equation.

Sometimes math doesn't make things more complex, it makes them simpler.
Doing photography without the concept of "stop" would be confusing, indeed!
Thanks to everyone for their responses. I appreci... (show quote)


I would like to make an off topic comment if you don't mind. While I think the so called "Exposure Triangle" useless I also think a tripod is useful but not a bipod.

Reply
Jan 23, 2019 16:37:21   #
Bipod
 
BebuLamar wrote:
I would like to make an off topic comment if you don't mind. While I think the so called "Exposure Triangle" useless I also think a tripod is useful but not a bipod.

I quite agree.

But if someone let's his camera determine the focus and exposure, then it is the photographer
and he is the, uh, bipod.

Reply
Jan 23, 2019 16:45:27   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
Bipod wrote:
I quite agree.

But if someone let's his camera determine the focus and exposure, then it is the photographer
and he is the, uh, bipod.


Let's get something straight, you set this up!

*** Is that how you got your user name? ***



--

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Jan 23, 2019 16:55:56   #
srt101fan
 
BebuLamar wrote:
I would like to make an off topic comment if you don't mind. While I think the so called "Exposure Triangle" useless I also think a tripod is useful but not a bipod.



Reply
 
 
Jan 23, 2019 17:24:05   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
Bipod wrote:

But if someone let's his camera determine the focus and exposure, then it is the photographer
and he is the, uh, bipod.

Not if s/he determines composition, ISO (*), shutter speed {stops motion}, and/or aperture {determines DOF}. I am happy to let automation take care of decisions it can do, and leave important decisions to me.

(*) determines noise, Color Depth, and Dynamic Range

Reply
Jan 23, 2019 20:33:26   #
AndyH Loc: Massachusetts and New Hampshire
 
Bipod wrote:
Thanks to everyone for their responses. I appreciate the good comments from all sides.

Perhaps I should clarify: I'm not trying to get anyone to switch to APEX (although it would be
nice to have the option of buying an APEX camera). My reason for creating this thread was to
post the simplest forms of the exposure equation:

TimeValue + ApertureValue = SensitvityValue + Brightness

Brightness = TimeValue + ApertureValue - SensitivtyValue

Photographers use the concepts of "stops" (base 2 logarithms) all the time.
By converting everything to log2 the equation become simple artithmetic.
In other words, I posted this not because it is complex, but because it's the
simplest way to express the exposure equation.

Other posters are much better than I am at explaining things to beginners.
This post was to clarify what needs to be explained--as well as to explore
an interesting alternative way of labeling camera controls that actually
exists as ASA/ISO standard.

Sometimes math doesn't make things more complex, it makes them simpler.
Doing photography without the concept of "stop" would be confusing, indeed!
Thanks to everyone for their responses. I appreci... (show quote)


I appreciate the depth of your responses. This is the place for it, not the newbie threads.

Andy

Reply
Jan 23, 2019 21:20:42   #
User ID
 
sloscheider wrote:
..........
in Puerto Rico they're distance signage
was in kilometers and their speed limit
was in mph LOL


Thaz traditional PR math ;-)

Example, stringed instruments:

A "Tres" has four courses of strings,
and a "Quatro" has five. Go figger !

.

Reply
Jan 23, 2019 21:24:53   #
Bipod
 
Good grief! What the heck did lonewolf456 do to you guys?

Reply
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