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Why is exposure so confusing?
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Jan 22, 2019 14:59:53   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
Blenheim Orange wrote:
Can someone explain to me why in the world this post would be so upsetting to people here?Mike


Because it isn’t confusing to begin with, one just need a simple explanation. Your buddy did exactly the opposite. On purpose.

This post is right on the money

Quote:
d3200prime wrote:
Your post really created a buzz storm of controversy and I believe that was your purpose, however, a seasoned photographer has learned by experience not to get tangled up in such nonsense. If the engineers of our space program had tried this with the astronauts we would have never gotten to the moon. This is a ridiculous post.

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Jan 22, 2019 15:09:57   #
srt101fan
 
BebuLamar wrote:
It's easier to simply memorize them all. The traditional f/stop numbers are mathematically incorrect any way. The f/5.6 which should be f/5.7. The f/22 should really be f/23. The same thing with the shutter speed as has been pointed out by the OP. They are not simply doubling in each steps. So it's best to simply memorize them.


WHY MEMORIZE THEM???

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Jan 22, 2019 15:11:15   #
Curmudgeon Loc: SE Arizona
 
Blenheim Orange wrote:
Another interesting and informative post. Thanks.

Can someone explain to me why in the world this post would be so upsetting to people here?

Mike


This is only a guess but it seems to pit engineers/mathematicians vs. artists, vs. people who just want to take good pictures. Each wants to explain it in their own way. Engineers truly believe that if the others could/would believe the engineering/math it would all make sense. Artists don't care about what is technically right they know what their picture should look like and use settings to accomplish that. Speaking for myself, a picture taker; I sit back and giggle a little bit and remember what my old Pappy told me: "Never argue with a zealot son". I try dad I really do but sometimes

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Jan 22, 2019 15:11:21   #
WessoJPEG Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
 
jonjacobik wrote:
A simple argument against.

There ain't no zero in photography except when you don't press the shutter.
You can't half zero and you can't double it.

If it doesn't make sense, set it 'A'

There's more light, and less light.
There's more more time, and less time.
There's more sensitivity, and less sensitivity.

That's all.


🤪😂

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Jan 22, 2019 15:13:25   #
srt101fan
 
d3200prime wrote:
Your post really created a buzz storm of controversy and I believe that was your purpose, however, a seasoned photographer has learned by experience not to get tangled up in such nonsense. If the engineers of our space program had tried this with the astronauts we would have never gotten to the moon. This is a ridiculous post.



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Jan 22, 2019 15:15:38   #
WessoJPEG Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
 
jaymatt wrote:
Two types of wrenches? that’s reality now because of those #$%^& metrics.


Left handed monkey wrench.

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Jan 22, 2019 15:18:49   #
BebuLamar
 
srt101fan wrote:
WHY MEMORIZE THEM???


'CAUSE I DON'T WANT TO COUNT CLICKS.

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Jan 22, 2019 15:21:33   #
srt101fan
 
BebuLamar wrote:
'CAUSE I DON'T WANT TO COUNT CLICKS.


Thanks! I finally got an answer! 😊

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Jan 22, 2019 15:43:23   #
R.G. Loc: Scotland
 
Apart from some minor complications and departures from the simple model, the good thing is the whole system resolves itself into stops - halfings and doublings.

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Jan 22, 2019 15:54:49   #
lonewolf456
 
Amen. Totally agree. Rubbish post.

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Jan 22, 2019 15:57:12   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
R.G. wrote:
Apart from some minor complications and departures from the simple model, the good thing is the whole system resolves itself into stops - halfings and doublings.

There's not much point in trying to remember 1/3 steps and 1/2 steps.

I have updated the Exposure Triangle spreadsheet to include DIN and APEX values. You can download it at:

http://www.scotty-elmslie.com/uploads/5/6/3/3/56337819/exposure_triangle.xls

You cam play with the spreadsheet without wearing out your camera. The PDF documentation can be downloaded at:

http://www.scotty-elmslie.com/uploads/5/6/3/3/56337819/exposure_triangle_spreadsheet.pdf

I have not updated the documentation to explain these additions.


(Download)

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Jan 22, 2019 16:17:17   #
BebuLamar
 
selmslie wrote:
There's not much point in trying to remember 1/3 steps and 1/2 steps.

I have updated the Exposure Triangle spreadsheet to include DIN and APEX values. You can download it at:

http://www.scotty-elmslie.com/uploads/5/6/3/3/56337819/exposure_triangle.xls

You cam play with the spreadsheet without wearing out your camera. The PDF documentation can be downloaded at:

http://www.scotty-elmslie.com/uploads/5/6/3/3/56337819/exposure_triangle_spreadsheet.pdf

I have not updated the documentation to explain these additions.
There's not much point in trying to remember 1/3 s... (show quote)


While spreadsheet and calculator would give you precise values. The problem is that many of these values are not the same as the conventional values marked on the cameras and lenses.

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Jan 22, 2019 16:36:59   #
CamB Loc: Juneau, Alaska
 
So much of the main post throws the simple half and double settings of the three major controls (F stop, shutter and ISO), right out the window. Take ISO: 400 accepts half the light of 200. 100 accepts twice the light of 200. Simple. On the APEX scale those would be 4, 5, and 6. Those numbers don't relate to anything. And there's no half stops or third stops. The current system is simple, and is recognized and standard on all camera system everywhere Like anything, it has to be learned. I found the OP's post vaguely interesting and a mathematicians dream, but if your brain doesn't work that way it's numbers mush.
...Cam
Bipod wrote:
It time someone talked about WHY exposure is so confusing.

It's because of the way manufacture's label camera settings. They don't apply base 2 logarithms
consistently.

There are two reasonable rules:
1. Each detent on a control (aperture, shutter, ISO, exposure compenstation) must be EXACTLY
twice (or half) the exposure of the previous detent; and
2 Each should be labeled in integers: ... -3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3....

If you do this consistantly, you get the Additive Photographic Exposure System (APEX)
which was standardized way back in 1960 (ASA standard ASA PH2.5-1960) and was used
in industry and by the military (where confusion is not OK).

EC knobs (and menus) generally follow both rules: No compensation is labeled "0". Increasing
exposure by one stop is labled "1". Decreasing exposure by one stop is labeled "-1". Anyone
confused by this? Pretty simple, right?

F-numbers follow Rule 1, but not Rule 2. The sequence 1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4, 5.6, etc. is a lot more
complicated than 1,2,3,4,5... And you don't need to know the actual f-stop ratio unless you are
building a camera.

Shutter speeds are a mess. They follow neither rule. This sequence makes sense:
1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, .... This one doesn't: 1, 2, 4, 8, 15, 30, 60, 125, 250, 500, .....
What's the rule for latter sequence, pray tell?

ISO speeds are given in two different sysems: ASA and DIN. Both follow Rule 1, but only DIN
follows Rule 2. The ISO "standard" is to use BOTH! (Sure sign of a gutless committee trying to
please everybody.) The ASA number isn't even logarithmic. And ASA 100 is DIN 21 -- why 21?
"Historical reasons".

Finally, Exposure values follow Rule 1 but not Rule 2 -- again for "historical reasons".
"Historical reasons" is a polite way of saying S.N.A.F.U.

Exposure is confusing because of the silly, stupid, inconsitent way in which cameras controls
are labeled.

Here's the "Sunny 16" rule in the traditional Tower of Babel system:

At approx. EV 15 and f/16, use shutter speed 1/ASA speed
for example:
At approx. EV 15 and f/16 and ASA 100, use 1/100th sec

(which of course, isn't even a detent on the shutter dial-it only has 125.)

Here the general rule in APEX:

TimeValue + ApertureValue = SensitvityValue + Brightness
E.g., at approx. EV 15:
5 + 8 = 5 + 8

Does this math confuse anybody? Dang simple, if you ask me.
So by subtracting SensitivityValue from both sides:

Brightness = TimeValue + ApertureValue - SensitivtyValue
8 = 5 + 8 - 5

As usual, people are willing to update their hardware and software (= buy stuff) but not their thinking.
Picture a cave man holding a Nikon. "Og like take photos. But Og confused by exposure." No wonder!


For reference, here's the basic system, as standardized in 1960.

APEX SYSTEM (per ASA PH2.5-1960)

Note: this may differ from EXIF Version 2.2.

APERTURE

f-number APEX
1 0
1.4 1
2 2
2.8 3
4 4
5.6 5
8 6
11 7
16 8
22 9
etc.

SHUTTER SPEED

The original APEX standard kept the irregular shutter times: 1, 1/2, 1/4,1/8, 1/15, 1/30, 1/60, 1/125....

In fact, some cameras are already calibrated to 1/16, 1/32, 1/64... Shutters are rarely accurate enough
to tell the difference except at 1/15 <> 1/16.

Nominal Sec. APEX
1 1 0
2 1/2 1
15 1/15 2
30 1/30 3
60 1/60 4
125 1/125 5
250 1/250 6
500 1/500 7
1000 1/1000 8
etc.

FILM/SENSOR SPEED


ASA DIN APEX
100 21 5
200 22 6
400 23 7
800 24 8
1600 25 9
etc.


BRIGHTNESS

Again, the original standard kept the irregular shutter speeds, so it had to have
irregular brightnesses as well.


APEX FOOT LAMBERTS
1 2
2 4
3 8
4 15
5 30
6 60
7 125
8 250
9 500
10 1000
etc.
It time someone talked about WHY exposure is so co... (show quote)

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Jan 22, 2019 16:52:22   #
ballsafire Loc: Lafayette, Louisiana
 
Just Shoot Me wrote:
I believe you are on the right track.
Just like pharmists used to write in Latin.
Confusing to those who don’t have the background from 50 years ago, when that’s all we had.
Maybe we can make a difference if we keep talking about it, but getting camera manufacturers to agree...


Thanks for pointing this out to the "stupid" manufactureures!

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Jan 22, 2019 16:53:33   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
ballsafire wrote:
Thanks for pointing this out to the "stupid" manufactureures!



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