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Dec 19, 2018 12:21:32   #
scsdesphotography Loc: Southeastern Michigan
 
Gene51 wrote:
You should decide if a long or short lens will work for you by looking at the results. I have used wider angle lenses at greater distances and some cropping to get a decent "look". Keep in mind that it is the subject to camera distance that controls how elongated or flat a face will appear. If you try to fill a head shot using a very wide angle lens like an 18mm, the face will be narrow and have a big nose, aka "horse face" or extension distortion, common to wide angle lenses. But it is an illusion, because to fill the frame you have to be very close. If you were to move back to the same distance you would need to fill the frame with a 105mm lens, the face will be smaller, but it will look exactly like the 105mm shot, but there will be a lot of space around the subject.

"Look at the size of his head – it appears disproportionately large relative to his body. His eyes, nose and lips are very much enlarged, while his ears are dwarfed. And this was only at 27mm! You can imagine what it would look like if I got closer to his face or used a wider lens at a shorter distance.

This phenomenon is explained with drawings and real images here:

https://photographylife.com/what-is-distortion

Here a quote from the text:

"This is the part that seems to confuse a lot of photographers – the relationship (or lack thereof) of focal length to perspective distortion. You might hear some photographers say that one should use longer focal lengths to photograph people, or they will get distorted due to the lens’ short focal length. This is a mostly false statement, because lenses have no perspective. Other than fisheye lenses, all lenses have the same perspective – it is the camera to subject distance that determines perspective, not the focal length. There is an illusion of different perspective of lenses, because with long focal lengths you have to stand further away from the subject to frame them the same way. If you were to stand at the same distance, the subject would appear exactly the same!"

As far as lighting is concerned, if you have a garage, you can open the garage door, set up a simple background, like maybe a 4x8 sheet of bead board insulation or drywall, and seat the subject in front of the background, with the light from the open door falling on the subject without getting any direct sunlight. Watch your color balance because open skylight is quite cool.

Another approach might be to find an outdoor location that has enough room to put some distance between the subject and the background. Using the most flattering combination of camera to subject distance and focal length, use a fairly large aperture, so that the background can be softly blurred. The best times for these kinds of pictures will be up to an hour after sunrise or an hour before sunse - the golden hour.

You can find a lot of examples some good and some awful - here:

https://www.flickr.com/search/?text=golden%20hour%20portrait

If you have to add some fill light to open up the shadows on the side of the face not illuminated by your light source - then use a very large reflector. I use one of these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJO9IZPQnKM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAcY5ob2UnE

The larger the light source, or in this case the fill source, the softer the effect and the more open the shadows will be. Placing the beadboard or light closer to the subject will provide softer light than if you put a light or reflector 20 ft away.

Lighting and posing for portraits is best explained using examples:

https://digital-photography-school.com/6-portrait-lighting-patterns-every-photographer-should-know/
You should decide if a long or short lens will wor... (show quote)


Hi Gene51, I think the issue with long vs. short lenses for portrait work has to do with optical compression. The effect is most obvious in landscape work. With a long lens the background appears to be much closer to the subject than it does with a shorter lens. For people the compression effect is more subtle, it affects your perception of the distance between the tip of the persons nose and their ears. In most cases this compression is more flattering to the persons face. I've done it both ways and the image produced by the longer lens always looks better to me. Despite what the quoted author says, most portrait pros prefer the results produced by a longer lens. Pros are pragmatist, if a shorter less expensive lens produces the same effect why wouldn't they go with that? It's not about theory, it's about practical result.

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Dec 19, 2018 13:43:17   #
PHRubin Loc: Nashville TN USA
 
1) Most recommend a 75 to 100mm lens. Remember, that is 35mm equivalent if you are shooting with a crop camera.
2) Flash fill is good, direct flash from hot shoe mounted flash is bad. Bounce if it doesn't add a color is good. Off camera is best.

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Dec 19, 2018 16:20:32   #
marty wild Loc: England
 
Wingpilot wrote:
My 24 year old grandson is visiting us for Christmas, and our daughter (his mom) wants me to take some portraits of Nick because she doesn't have a current photo of him. I haven't done any portraits before and would like some advice on how to set up for an informal portrait sitting. I don't have lights or a backdrop, other than a beige blank section of our living room wall. All I have is my A6300 and a 16-50 lens and a 55-210 lens. Choice #2 is a Nikon D90 and an 18-105 lens. What I really need is suggestions on how to position him, some effective camera settings, etc. This will be a learning experience for me. I'd appreciate any good advice. Thanks in advance.
My 24 year old grandson is visiting us for Christm... (show quote)

Have you a flash gun that can be fired off camera
Private message me I will draw you you a three way lights system with one light. If you have no lights your work will have to be shot out side to be most affective you can pull off portraits with Constance light which you can make creative you will need a light meter it will save time and unessary images. Get used to the histogram and not what you see on the screen

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Dec 19, 2018 18:32:54   #
farnsworth52 Loc: W. Pa.
 
Try this for beginners https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOU3lsfh0E5ywHpfsgAAv4w

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Dec 19, 2018 20:03:38   #
Wingpilot Loc: Wasilla. Ak
 
marty wild wrote:
Have you a flash gun that can be fired off camera
Private message me I will draw you you a three way lights system with one light. If you have no lights your work will have to be shot out side to be most affective you can pull off portraits with Constance light which you can make creative you will need a light meter it will save time and unessary images. Get used to the histogram and not what you see on the screen


Alas, I do not have a flash that can be used off camera. I'll have to improvise and make the best with what I have on hand. But thanks for the offer.

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Dec 19, 2018 20:22:29   #
CO
 
Wingpilot wrote:
Alas, I do not have a flash that can be used off camera. I'll have to improvise and make the best with what I have on hand. But thanks for the offer.


Which flash do you have? Your D90 has a commander mode. Its pop-up flash can trigger Nikon speedlights that work as a slave flash. You can even get the Nikon SG-31R IR panel. It will prevent the pop-up flash from adding its own light to the scene.

If your flash will not work as a slave off-camera, you can get radio triggers that support TTL metering. I use a PocketWizard Mini-TT1 and Flex-TT5. Many people use the Yongnuo triggers which are economical.


(Download)

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Dec 19, 2018 21:29:27   #
Wingpilot Loc: Wasilla. Ak
 
CO wrote:
Which flash do you have? Your D90 has a commander mode. Its pop-up flash can trigger Nikon speedlights that work as a slave flash. You can even get the Nikon SG-31R IR panel. It will prevent the pop-up flash from adding its own light to the scene.

If your flash will not work as a slave off-camera, you can get radio triggers that support TTL metering. I use a PocketWizard Mini-TT1 and Flex-TT5. Many people use the Yongnuo triggers which are economical.


Unfortunately I don't have any external type of flash unit. And I was nearby Best Buy today, too. I could have picked one up. We did finish up our Christmas shopping for the grandkids, though. They won out over a new flash unit.

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Dec 19, 2018 22:49:27   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
scsdesphotography wrote:
Hi Gene51, I think the issue with long vs. short lenses for portrait work has to do with optical compression. The effect is most obvious in landscape work. With a long lens the background appears to be much closer to the subject than it does with a shorter lens. For people the compression effect is more subtle, it affects your perception of the distance between the tip of the persons nose and their ears. In most cases this compression is more flattering to the persons face. I've done it both ways and the image produced by the longer lens always looks better to me. Despite what the quoted author says, most portrait pros prefer the results produced by a longer lens. Pros are pragmatist, if a shorter less expensive lens produces the same effect why wouldn't they go with that? It's not about theory, it's about practical result.
Hi Gene51, I think the issue with long vs. short l... (show quote)


You are incorrect.

Read these articles - and go out and try this for yourself - without changing camera or subject positions - take a shot with a person in it using a tele lens. Then swap the lens for a wide angle and repeat. In an image editor, crop the wide angle shot to show the same angle of view as the tele shot. The "compression" you see in the tele shot will be duplicated in the cropped wide angle shot.

This has been well documented, but you don't need to take anyone else's word for it, but if you must, then you should read these:

https://petapixel.com/2018/07/17/is-lens-compression-fact-or-fiction/

https://admiringlight.com/blog/perspective-correcting-myth/

https://nofilmschool.com/2018/05/lens-compression-myth-whats-really-happening-your-images-when-you-switch-focal-length

https://fstoppers.com/originals/lens-compression-doesnt-exist-147615

Don't feel bad, many photographers get this completely wrong. But when you think about it over, it makes absolutely perfect sense. When I posted the quote from Photography Life - it was because it was a very clear and concise explanation.

If you differ, please post your results that support what you have written. Remember, you need to do this WITHOUT changing positions of the subject or your camera, and cropping the wide shot as well as you can to match the tele shot.

If you still believe you are correct, and your eyes are lying to you, then I really can't help you.

I think the issue is that you have believed the often repeated bad information without fact-checking. It has nothing to do with focal lengths at all.

Here's another great myth. Smaller sensor cameras have shallower depth of field with a given lens at a given distance and aperture compared to using the same lens (focal length), subject distance and aperture on a full frame camera. Or, in other words, for example, 100mm lens on a full frame camera used at F4 will have greater depth of field than the same lens used on an APS-C camera at the same aperture and focused to the same exact distance. If you don't believe this, then check any DoF calculator or chart - changing only the camera sensor size. The smaller sensors will have less depth of field.

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Dec 19, 2018 23:02:35   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
Wingpilot wrote:
Alas, I do not have a flash that can be used off camera. I'll have to improvise and make the best with what I have on hand. But thanks for the offer.


If you must use a flash, try and use one that has a rotatable and tiltable flash head. You can do wonders with bounce flash off ceilings and walls.

This was done with two flashes, a bracket mounted flash providing key light and fired over my right shoulder at the wall/ceiling, and the pop up flash in the camera at minimum power to provide a tiny amount of fill, and a nice catchlight in the eyes. This is an unretouched proof straight out of Lightroom. I used the camera's PC port and cable to fire the bracket-mounted flash.


(Download)

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Dec 19, 2018 23:17:42   #
marty wild Loc: England
 
I like your work have you tried a smaller stop with flash this will isolate your models. I was shooting at a wedding afew weeks ago. I was shooting with Nikon D800 glass 12 to 24 super wide at F22 @ 125 sec EV +3 with close up flash I was able to isolate the wedding couple and capture very nice dress detail.

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Dec 20, 2018 06:35:47   #
CO
 
Gene51 wrote:
You are incorrect.

Read these articles - and go out and try this for yourself - without changing camera or subject positions - take a shot with a person in it using a tele lens. Then swap the lens for a wide angle and repeat. In an image editor, crop the wide angle shot to show the same angle of view as the tele shot. The "compression" you see in the tele shot will be duplicated in the cropped wide angle shot.

This has been well documented, but you don't need to take anyone else's word for it, but if you must, then you should read these:

https://petapixel.com/2018/07/17/is-lens-compression-fact-or-fiction/

https://admiringlight.com/blog/perspective-correcting-myth/

https://nofilmschool.com/2018/05/lens-compression-myth-whats-really-happening-your-images-when-you-switch-focal-length

https://fstoppers.com/originals/lens-compression-doesnt-exist-147615

Don't feel bad, many photographers get this completely wrong. But when you think about it over, it makes absolutely perfect sense. When I posted the quote from Photography Life - it was because it was a very clear and concise explanation.

If you differ, please post your results that support what you have written. Remember, you need to do this WITHOUT changing positions of the subject or your camera, and cropping the wide shot as well as you can to match the tele shot.

If you still believe you are correct, and your eyes are lying to you, then I really can't help you.

I think the issue is that you have believed the often repeated bad information without fact-checking. It has nothing to do with focal lengths at all.

Here's another great myth. Smaller sensor cameras have shallower depth of field with a given lens at a given distance and aperture compared to using the same lens (focal length), subject distance and aperture on a full frame camera. Or, in other words, for example, 100mm lens on a full frame camera used at F4 will have greater depth of field than the same lens used on an APS-C camera at the same aperture and focused to the same exact distance. If you don't believe this, then check any DoF calculator or chart - changing only the camera sensor size. The smaller sensors will have less depth of field.
You are incorrect. br br Read these articles - an... (show quote)


This is all true but who is going to crop a wide angle shot drastically? One would lose too much image quality, throwing away a lot of resolution. It's better to use the long focal length lens. This is why 85mm and 105mm lenses are so popular for portraits.

This is on the Photography Life website:

In fact, there is hardly a better lens for classic portraits than an 85mm f/1.4 (and, perhaps, a 135mm f/2 lens). Such lenses tend to have a very natural, smooth rendition with a flattering compression for any subject. Modern 85mm f/1.4 class lenses are also impressively sharp wide-open, and that, combined with paper-thin depth of field, allows for a very unique look not possible with any zoom lens. For portraits at such wide apertures, even natural vignetting is welcome.

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Dec 20, 2018 12:09:45   #
scsdesphotography Loc: Southeastern Michigan
 
Gene51 wrote:
You are incorrect.

Read these articles - and go out and try this for yourself - without changing camera or subject positions - take a shot with a person in it using a tele lens. Then swap the lens for a wide angle and repeat. In an image editor, crop the wide angle shot to show the same angle of view as the tele shot. The "compression" you see in the tele shot will be duplicated in the cropped wide angle shot.

This has been well documented, but you don't need to take anyone else's word for it, but if you must, then you should read these:

https://petapixel.com/2018/07/17/is-lens-compression-fact-or-fiction/

https://admiringlight.com/blog/perspective-correcting-myth/

https://nofilmschool.com/2018/05/lens-compression-myth-whats-really-happening-your-images-when-you-switch-focal-length

https://fstoppers.com/originals/lens-compression-doesnt-exist-147615

Don't feel bad, many photographers get this completely wrong. But when you think about it over, it makes absolutely perfect sense. When I posted the quote from Photography Life - it was because it was a very clear and concise explanation.

If you differ, please post your results that support what you have written. Remember, you need to do this WITHOUT changing positions of the subject or your camera, and cropping the wide shot as well as you can to match the tele shot.

If you still believe you are correct, and your eyes are lying to you, then I really can't help you.

I think the issue is that you have believed the often repeated bad information without fact-checking. It has nothing to do with focal lengths at all.

Here's another great myth. Smaller sensor cameras have shallower depth of field with a given lens at a given distance and aperture compared to using the same lens (focal length), subject distance and aperture on a full frame camera. Or, in other words, for example, 100mm lens on a full frame camera used at F4 will have greater depth of field than the same lens used on an APS-C camera at the same aperture and focused to the same exact distance. If you don't believe this, then check any DoF calculator or chart - changing only the camera sensor size. The smaller sensors will have less depth of field.
You are incorrect. br br Read these articles - an... (show quote)


Gene51, I'm not disputing any of those articles, but it's not how we actually do portraits. What you and they seem to be saying is this: there is no difference between an image shot at 20' with a 35mm prime and the same image shot with an 85mm prime. Let's say I make a 4x6 print of each image. With the 35 the dimension of the person's face is measured in 16ths of an inch. with the 85 the same dimensions are in inches. So now I jump into PS and crop my 35 image so that the person's face fills the frame just like the 85. I print that out and compare. I have done that. They do not look the same, for a variety of reasons, both optical and technical. But why would I do that? If I'm using a 35 for portrait it's likely that I will only be 5' away, for what reason would I stand 20' away (and why would I want to throw all those megapixels away)? If I compare the prints of the images made in that way, they do look very similar. But the print made from the 85 will be more pleasing, again for a variety of optical and technical reasons. For 100 years pro portrait photographers have used long lenses to do their work. They use this expensive glass because the quality of the resulting images justifies the prices they charge. Clients don't care about the equipment, they only want images that make them look good.

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Dec 20, 2018 12:18:48   #
GoofyNewfie Loc: Kansas City
 
scsdesphotography wrote:
Gene51, I'm not disputing any of those articles, but it's not how we actually do portraits. What you and they seem to be saying is this: there is no difference between an image shot at 20' with a 35mm prime and the same image shot with an 85mm prime. Let's say I make a 4x6 print of each image. With the 35 the dimension of the person's face is measured in 16ths of an inch. with the 85 the same dimensions are in inches. So now I jump into PS and crop my 35 image so that the person's face fills the frame just like the 85. I print that out and compare. I have done that. They do not look the same, for a variety of reasons, both optical and technical. But why would I do that? If I'm using a 35 for portrait it's likely that I will only be 5' away, for what reason would I stand 20' away (and why would I want to throw all those megapixels away)? If I compare the prints of the images made in that way, they do look very similar. But the print made from the 85 will be more pleasing, again for a variety of optical and technical reasons. For 100 years pro portrait photographers have used long lenses to do their work. They use this expensive glass because the quality of the resulting images justifies the prices they charge. Clients don't care about the equipment, they only want images that make them look good.
Gene51, I'm not disputing any of those articles, b... (show quote)

I think what Gene and others are saying is that the lens doesn’t do the compression. It’s the relative distance between the camera, subject and background that creates the compressed look. I’ve done the same exercise and it works for me.

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Dec 20, 2018 12:31:35   #
Wingpilot Loc: Wasilla. Ak
 
GoofyNewfie wrote:
I think what Gene and others are saying is that the lens doesn’t do the compression. It’s the relative distance between the camera, subject and background that creates the compressed look. I’ve done the same exercise and it works for me.


Agreed.

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Dec 20, 2018 12:36:20   #
scsdesphotography Loc: Southeastern Michigan
 
GoofyNewfie wrote:
What Gene and others are saying is they the lens doesn’t do the compression. It’s the relative distance between the camera, subject and background that creates the compressed look.


I get the physics of that. I just don't agree that under the stated conditions that you get identical images. I understand that it's about the distance, but the question for us, is which lens best exploits that compression? Maybe Gene51 can't see the difference, obviously quite a few others can.

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