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D850 jpg vs raw print quality
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Dec 6, 2018 08:33:05   #
GoofyNewfie Loc: Kansas City
 
ELNikkor wrote:
Wow, 93mb for 1 RAW photo from the camera? And I thought my D750 was over-achieving when it put out 34mb when it was rated 24mb! And after processing, 268 mb for 1 image?!? = 4 images to a GB? Who needs that, and how often?


Your D750 has a 24 megaPIXEL sensor, puts out 34 megaBYTE raw files, and it sounds like you're saving as a TIFF.
One is a measure of quantity, the other of file size.

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Dec 6, 2018 08:43:33   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
I would guess that many of the folks who only shoot raw (I did for many years) have simply missed the improvements that have been made in jpg processing over the years. Both in camera and computer based software has come a long way.

With all the in camera options the argument that you are letting the camera make the decisions for you is no more valid than saying that PhotoShop is making the decisions.

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Dec 6, 2018 09:21:54   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
Bill_de wrote:
I would guess that many of the folks who only shoot raw (I did for many years) have simply missed the improvements that have been made in jpg processing over the years. Both in camera and computer based software has come a long way.

With all the in camera options the argument that you are letting the camera make the decisions for you is no more valid than saying that PhotoShop is making the decisions.

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Very well said! I for one agree, but there is going to be a poop storm comin

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Dec 6, 2018 09:24:19   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
Bill_de wrote:
I would guess that many of the folks who only shoot raw (I did for many years) have simply missed the improvements that have been made in jpg processing over the years. Both in camera and computer based software has come a long way.

With all the in camera options the argument that you are letting the camera make the decisions for you is no more valid than saying that PhotoShop is making the decisions.
Well said! I agree, but a fear a poop storm is a comin!🤤
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Dec 6, 2018 09:42:33   #
Dale40203 Loc: Louisville, KY
 
To see exactly where the differences lie between a JPEG and RAW version of the same exposure, open both in Photoshop. Copy one and paste it into a separate layer in the other. Choose "Difference" in the Blend Mode selector. This will compare every pixel in each layer with its corresponding pixel above or below it. If there is no difference, the result will be null or black. Most of the differences will be found in transition boundaries or in areas containing very subtle blends.

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Dec 6, 2018 10:36:35   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
It seems to me that there has been a bit of a misunderstanding over the years about what is physically involved when one or the other of the available file formats is chosen for saving images captured by the camera, as well as what the real advantages are of one format over another. Basic capabilities of the various formats clearly vary, with JPEG built around a bit depth of 8, most raw formats either 12 or 14, and TIFF at 16. Fundamentals of file management also vary, especially the degree and robustness of compression algorithms, both between and within file formats.

The primary advantages of JPEG as I see them, are that the files tend to be of more reasonable size for a given pixel count and that almost anyone has a viewer capable of opening the files. Raw provides more image depth, but the ability of others to open files can be very limited. TIFF (the "forgotten format") actually offers 2 or 4 more bits of image depth than most raw formats, and also enjoys the benefit of standard viewers being widely available.

I saved my images exclusively as JPEGs for many years, and there are some very acceptable ones among them. The ones that aren't cannot be blamed on the file format. Last spring I bought and installed Lightroom and Photoshop to augment other editing software that I'd been using, since my wife signed me up for a night sky workshop as a birthday gift. Let me say that I do understand the benefits of post processing and no longer argue against it. But I agree with MT Shooter and others here that with proper preprocessing it is possible to capture images that can require little or even no additional work, especially with modern cameras.

We have seen that well crafted 8 bit images can produce images that are not easily distinguishable from others. It's not automatic that this will happen, but it is possible. And it is possible to save the resulting JPEGs in a form that will lose very little, if any, detail if all pixels are retained and if the option of minimum compression is selected (Fine & Large on at least a majority of cameras). If any post processing is accomplished in one session and the results saved once, little or no information need be subsequently lost as well.

Multiple areas of photography lend to a multitude of different solutions. File format, preprocessing, and post processing are certainly among these.

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Dec 6, 2018 11:59:35   #
jeep_daddy Loc: Prescott AZ
 
You should always be able to edit a raw image to look better than sooc jpg. You simply haven't mastered editing raw files. In a lot of cases a jpg is as good as a raw image. It's the rare occasion where certain photos shine when taken raw and are edited properly to bring out detail that a jpg can't display. In many cases when a landscape picture is taken and it include a blue sky where the sky changes grades of blue subtly that the 8-bit jpg image will cause banding. You have to edit the crap out of that image to try and get rid of the banding. But taken as a raw and edited and saved as a 16-bit image, this will not be troublesome. Certain white fabrics worn by people look very white while rendered in camera as a jpg, but when adjusted in ACR as a raw, you can bring out detail that you couldn't see in the jpg such as slight waves and wrinkles in the fabric and texture in the fabric. Some of these details aren't going to be noticeable if you aren't editing your raw files to the images full potential.

more-or-less wrote:
I would expect that I would be able to see a pretty big difference in the print quality/detail between the jpeg & the tiff 24x36 prints. Both scaled to 300 dpi before printing. It seems to me that with all the additional information in the tiff file it should be obvious the differences in the two prints. I am very hard pressed to see much of any difference. In fact, the sharpness in the jpeg seems to be better than the tiff. That may be that I just haven’t mastered the art of editing for sharpness and noise reduction as well as the in camera jpeg’s.

Shouldn’t I expect to see a much better detail in the image given the difference in the file size 31meg vs 268meg?
The only advantage I see in shooting in raw is the flexibility to bring out more detail in the over and/or under exposed areas of the photo.

What am I missing?
I would expect that I would be able to see a pre... (show quote)

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Dec 6, 2018 12:12:25   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
MT Shooter wrote:
I also shoot a D850 for the last 15 months, and I have all but quit shooting RAW with it. The in-camera processing is SO GOOD that I can see no room for improvement by PP'ing them and spending all that unnecessary time at the computer. I am a photographer, not an editor. The JPG processing capability in the D850 is totally controllable by the user and can be fully adjusted to yield the same results that you get with PP software short of cloning out unwanted elements in an image.
Check this post for examples:
https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-567042-1.html

(One of these I have printed at 4'x6' and its sharp enough to undergo extremely close up scrutiny!)
I also shoot a D850 for the last 15 months, and I ... (show quote)


Even I would agree that having the sun behind you doesn’t tax the camera. My m4/3 gear can do that. So that isn’t going to say much in favor of shooting jpegs.

Have the lighsource in front of you and there is no camera that can record the DR.

THAT is a reason to shoot raw.

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Dec 6, 2018 12:26:06   #
MT Shooter Loc: Montana
 
tdekany wrote:
Even I would agree that having the sun behind you doesn’t tax the camera. My m4/3 gear can do that. So that isn’t going to say much in favor of shooting jpegs.

Have the lighsource in front of you and there is no camera that can record the DR.

THAT is a reason to shoot raw.


I guess you just need more practice at reading your own byline!
Quote:
Masters worry about light."

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Dec 6, 2018 12:32:40   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
MT Shooter wrote:
I guess you just need more practice at reading your own byline!


Looks like you need practice as well.

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Dec 6, 2018 14:49:41   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
more-or-less wrote:
What should I focusing on when looking for high quality prints?


Smooth color and tonal transitions from using a wide gamut, 16 bit workflow throughout your editing process until final output. Jpegs can show banding and other undesirable effects. Also, for the highest quality, seek out a lab that uses wide gamut inksets on top shelf paper. If you can find one local to you that uses a Roland printer with the Symphony inset you'll be in for a treat.

You don't need to resample your images to 300ppi. Labs use hardware raster image processors that do that automatically, as well as anti-aliasing and other image enhancements that home printers typically don't offer. And while you can always buy one, they are expensive.

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Dec 6, 2018 18:54:40   #
imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida
 
tdekany wrote:
Even I would agree that having the sun behind you doesn’t tax the camera. My m4/3 gear can do that. So that isn’t going to say much in favor of shooting jpegs.

Have the lighsource in front of you and there is no camera that can record the DR.

THAT is a reason to shoot raw.


-OR- multi image JPEG HDR ... and post processed.

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Dec 6, 2018 19:06:53   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
imagemeister wrote:
-OR- multi image JPEG HDR ... and post processed.


Right, that will also work. You are correct, but MT claims something that isn’t there yet. Hdr scene in one jpeg shot.

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Dec 6, 2018 19:19:11   #
martinfisherphoto Loc: Lake Placid Florida
 
They are seeing the Light.............
imagemeister wrote:
I am so glad for this thread and that you are speaking up about this in a rational manner !! MANY of the newer cameras are as capable as the 850 IMO. The NEED for reality based photographers to shoot raw diminishes with each passing day due to sensor and software technology advances. As mentioned above, the human eye as well as most imageing media are MOSTLY unable to see or reproduce the "detail" that raw is promised to produce !

..

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Dec 6, 2018 22:08:40   #
erickter Loc: Dallas,TX
 
imagemeister wrote:
I am so glad for this thread and that you are speaking up about this in a rational manner !! MANY of the newer cameras are as capable as the 850 IMO. The NEED for reality based photographers to shoot raw diminishes with each passing day due to sensor and software technology advances. As mentioned above, the human eye as well as most imageing media are MOSTLY unable to see or reproduce the "detail" that raw is promised to produce !

..




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