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Low light performance in crop sensor body
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Dec 1, 2018 10:52:18   #
martinfisherphoto Loc: Lake Placid Florida
 
When I first started photography I was limited on funds as well and still am. I shot with crop sensor cameras and just average lens as well. I quickly learned I had to Embrace my cameras short comings and learn to shot around them, after all that's a large part of photography. Many folks want bigger, faster, easier photography and often play the blame game on their equipment. Sounds like you know the limitations of your camera, now find a solution, wait for better light, use longer exposures, change subject types, ect..... If you learn to work around your cameras limitations, think how much you will have grown as a photographer. You can bet no matter how much money you can throw at photography all equipment has some sort of limitations....

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Dec 1, 2018 10:54:27   #
Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England
 
47greyfox wrote:
I learn something every day! Yes, I read the manual (for it’s worth) and missed “Multi Frame Noise Reduction” in the ISO mode. Thanks!


It's in the menu, too, GreyFox ... at least, on the a77 II Larry and I both have ... outside, I shoot with it, all the time ...

Inside - I skip it ... tends to be much faster, that way ....

Using Multi-Frame Noise Reduction on a Sony SLT - you can't go wrong!!!!

Fantastic life-saver!!!!!


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Dec 1, 2018 10:59:23   #
ronpier Loc: Poland Ohio
 
hangman45 wrote:
The K-3 will do fine up to 3200 with proper noise reduction took me a while after the K-5 to figure out best way to post process and thought I had made a mistake upgrading to K-3 but after a while I figured out it just seemed to have more noise but it was a noise that was easily removed.

This was shot at ISO8000
IMGP4895-1 by Tim Crumly, on Flickr
The K-3 will do fine up to 3200 with proper noise ... (show quote)


Hangman I am impressed with the clarity of your photos at the higher ISOs. Noticed you are using Tamron lenses. They seem to do a good job for you? I have on order for Christmas the Tamron 28-75 f2.8 for my Nikon. Can’t wait to post with this lens. High ISO in low light challenges me also. I recently purchased the NIKKOR 50mm f1.8. FX. Great for low light at low ISOs.

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Dec 1, 2018 11:03:15   #
Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England
 
amfoto1 wrote:
I cannot compare with or comment about the Pentax K3, because I've never used one.

I also haven't used the T1i, but I have used other 15MP Canon cameras (50D) and can tell you that just about any of the current models will be considerably higher ISO capable. The 20MP and 24MP Canon, in particular those with the Digic 6 or Digic 7 processors, are very capable of high ISO.

The image below was done with one of my 7D Mark II, a test shot at ISO 16000 (not a type.... sixteen thousand... not 1600). It helps that image noise can "hide" in images of furry critters... But you'll see some noise in the enlarged crop. However I think it's pretty well controlled. I've sold images that were shot with these cameras at ISO 6400, 12800 and even occasionally 16000. I shoot RAW and am careful to avoid underexposure, sometimes even over-expose a little and "pull back" the image in post processing. The attached image has no in-camera NR applied, RAW conversion was done in Lightroom using only the default level of NR there. When I'm finishing a high ISO image more fully, I'll use Imagenomic Noiseware plug-in in Photoshop to further reduce what's seen in this image.



All the current Canon APS-C models - both DSLR and mirrorless M-series - use the even newer 24MP sensor, except for the 7DII with 20MP (same as in 70D, I think). Of them all, the only one I would be concerned about is the most entry-level T7 model (no "i"), which uses a Digic 4 processor, same as the model it replaced (also the same processor as in your T1i). All the others use Digic 6, Digic 7 or in a few cases now, Digic 8. (Note, the latter now have a new RAW file format.... CR3, as opposed to CR2 found in all the earlier). In addition to sensor improvements, the newer and more powerful processors contribute to image quality and noise handling, too.

It might help put it in perspective, when I was shooting with 15MP 50D APS-C cameras, I used a 21MP full frame 5D Mark II alongside them especially for high ISO purposes (among other things), up to 6400. I continued to use it alongside 18MP 7D original model cameras, when I was shooting with those for about five years. But since getting 20MP 7D Mark II a couple years ago, I hardly use the 5DII at all. Never for high ISO work. The 7DIIs handle that just as well or better. Sure, I could update to a newer version of full frame to have even higher ISO.... but it's pretty rare I need higher than 6400 or, perhaps, 12800. And the 7DIIs handle that as well as or better than the 5DII. Below is an ISO 6400 test shot done with 5DII (and the EF 135mm f/2L I bought with it)...



You might notice a theme in my test shots!

In the end, I think you would be happy with almost any of the current Canon APS-C cameras.... and could continue to use the lenses and perhaps more of the accessories you have now (flashes, memory cards, etc.) I think you'd get the most "bang for your buck" with 80D or 77D.... but if you prefer the Rebel-style controls, the T7i or smaller SL2 might be worth consideration. Any of those models is within your budget. Some of them would leave a lot left over for other things! Of those, the SL2 has an AF system very similar to your camera's, while the other three use the more advanced 45-point AF system that was introduced in the 80D (and is able to work in lower light conditions too). They all have articulated Touch Screen LCDs and use Canon's Dual Pixel AF in Live View (a huge improvement over the old contrast detection AF in Live View on cameras prior to the 70D). The 80D also has 100% viewfinder using a true pentaprism (bigger & brighter), Micro Focus Adjustment, and a higher specification shutter (top speed 1/8000 & 1/250 flash sync, also rated for a longer life span).

I wouldn't rule out the mirrorless M-series cameras either, if those interest you. The M5 and the newer M50 have electronic viewfinders, while the M6 and M100 don't (I think the M100 is of the newest models using the Digic 8 processor, with the new CR3 RAW file format). Any EF/EF-S lenses you have can be used on the M-series with an adapter.

Have fun shopping!
I cannot compare with or comment about the Pentax ... (show quote)


Alan ... only the M50 and the new R use the Digic 8 CPU ... the older M100 has the Digic 7 - shared by the T7i, and the 77D ....

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Dec 1, 2018 11:27:58   #
Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England
 
amfoto1 wrote:
I cannot compare with or comment about the Pentax K3, because I've never used one.

I also haven't used the T1i, but I have used other 15MP Canon cameras (50D) and can tell you that just about any of the current models will be considerably higher ISO capable. The 20MP and 24MP Canon, in particular those with the Digic 6 or Digic 7 processors, are very capable of high ISO.

The image below was done with one of my 7D Mark II, a test shot at ISO 16000 (not a type.... sixteen thousand... not 1600). It helps that image noise can "hide" in images of furry critters... But you'll see some noise in the enlarged crop. However I think it's pretty well controlled. I've sold images that were shot with these cameras at ISO 6400, 12800 and even occasionally 16000. I shoot RAW and am careful to avoid underexposure, sometimes even over-expose a little and "pull back" the image in post processing. The attached image has no in-camera NR applied, RAW conversion was done in Lightroom using only the default level of NR there. When I'm finishing a high ISO image more fully, I'll use Imagenomic Noiseware plug-in in Photoshop to further reduce what's seen in this image.



All the current Canon APS-C models - both DSLR and mirrorless M-series - use the even newer 24MP sensor, except for the 7DII with 20MP (same as in 70D, I think). Of them all, the only one I would be concerned about is the most entry-level T7 model (no "i"), which uses a Digic 4 processor, same as the model it replaced (also the same processor as in your T1i). All the others use Digic 6, Digic 7 or in a few cases now, Digic 8. (Note, the latter now have a new RAW file format.... CR3, as opposed to CR2 found in all the earlier). In addition to sensor improvements, the newer and more powerful processors contribute to image quality and noise handling, too.

It might help put it in perspective, when I was shooting with 15MP 50D APS-C cameras, I used a 21MP full frame 5D Mark II alongside them especially for high ISO purposes (among other things), up to 6400. I continued to use it alongside 18MP 7D original model cameras, when I was shooting with those for about five years. But since getting 20MP 7D Mark II a couple years ago, I hardly use the 5DII at all. Never for high ISO work. The 7DIIs handle that just as well or better. Sure, I could update to a newer version of full frame to have even higher ISO.... but it's pretty rare I need higher than 6400 or, perhaps, 12800. And the 7DIIs handle that as well as or better than the 5DII. Below is an ISO 6400 test shot done with 5DII (and the EF 135mm f/2L I bought with it)...



You might notice a theme in my test shots!

In the end, I think you would be happy with almost any of the current Canon APS-C cameras.... and could continue to use the lenses and perhaps more of the accessories you have now (flashes, memory cards, etc.) I think you'd get the most "bang for your buck" with 80D or 77D.... but if you prefer the Rebel-style controls, the T7i or smaller SL2 might be worth consideration. Any of those models is within your budget. Some of them would leave a lot left over for other things! Of those, the SL2 has an AF system very similar to your camera's, while the other three use the more advanced 45-point AF system that was introduced in the 80D (and is able to work in lower light conditions too). They all have articulated Touch Screen LCDs and use Canon's Dual Pixel AF in Live View (a huge improvement over the old contrast detection AF in Live View on cameras prior to the 70D). The 80D also has 100% viewfinder using a true pentaprism (bigger & brighter), Micro Focus Adjustment, and a higher specification shutter (top speed 1/8000 & 1/250 flash sync, also rated for a longer life span).

I wouldn't rule out the mirrorless M-series cameras either, if those interest you. The M5 and the newer M50 have electronic viewfinders, while the M6 and M100 don't (I think the M100 is of the newest models using the Digic 8 processor, with the new CR3 RAW file format). Any EF/EF-S lenses you have can be used on the M-series with an adapter.

Have fun shopping!
I cannot compare with or comment about the Pentax ... (show quote)


Alan ... love the cats!!!!

Here's a quick table listing the hierarchy of the most recent Canon EOS CPUs ... FYI ...

The Hierarchy of the most recent Canon EOS CPUs -

Digic 6
1Dx Mk. II, 5Ds / 5Ds R, 5D Mk. IV, 7D Mk. II, 80D, T6i / T6s, M3, M10
Digic 7
6D Mk. II, 77D, T7i, SL2, M5, M6, M100
Digic 8
M50, EOS R

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Dec 1, 2018 11:30:47   #
cjc2 Loc: Hellertown PA
 
Rab-Eye wrote:
I am very pleased with the performance of my D500 in low light.


I also own, and use, the Nikon D500 and find it acceptable (to me) in some lower light situations. That said, I prefer my D5 and D850. Best of luck

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Dec 1, 2018 11:35:20   #
AndyH Loc: Massachusetts and New Hampshire
 
Gene51 wrote:


Just one more thing - three pages of responses to the OP's question and not a peep since the first post. I think we have all been trolled.


OTOH, as with many gear-related posts, the rest of us have gotten a lot of very useful information and advice. Whatever the intent of sincerity of the OP, I find that most threads like this have a real benefit to the community.

Andy

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Dec 1, 2018 11:35:58   #
Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England
 
cjc2 wrote:
I also own, and use, the Nikon D500 and find it acceptable (to me) in some lower light situations. That said, I prefer my D5 and D850. Best of luck


Chris ... that said - which of those two (D5, D850) do you prefer - in the lowest light situations?


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Dec 1, 2018 11:37:27   #
kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy
 
Go look at DXOMark.com for sensor low light ratings.

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Dec 1, 2018 11:42:43   #
Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England
 
AndyH wrote:
OTOH, as with many gear-related posts, the rest of us have gotten a lot of very useful information and advice. Whatever the intent of sincerity of the OP, I find that most threads like this have a real benefit to the community.

Andy


Thereyago, Andy ... I agree ... some very useful info, here ...


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Dec 1, 2018 11:55:17   #
jaycoffman Loc: San Diego
 
I haven't tried the Nikon D500 but it has an excellent reputation for low light capability as stated by others. But as you've mentioned weight as a driving factor you'll want to try that camera before you buy as I found it bigger and heavier than my Nikon D7100. (I share your low light issues with my D7100 and while I can get the shots they are seldom keepers.)

Also, since you mentioned weight as the driving factor but did not rule out mirrorless you may consider a full frame mirrorless as they are significantly lighter than even most crop frame cameras.

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Dec 1, 2018 11:56:24   #
bobmcculloch Loc: NYC, NY
 
Given your criteria, I'd probably try renting one of the newer Canons, T5i/T7i area and see if they perform to your satisfaction, or perhaps taking some shots on your memory card inside a store if it would be allowed, for comparison, then buying just a body direct from Canon, refurbs are frequently available.

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Dec 1, 2018 12:04:11   #
hankswan
 
I know that it is always the idea when looking for a camera to check the new offerings and see what fits. I use a Nikon D700 with a D200 for a backup body. All of my lenses are FF and none of them are "G" (Gelding) lens. I guess most of my attention to camera equipment is "old school" but it works for me. Take a look at the D700 (some used D700s have very little use and are in what appears to be excellent shape. Go on Youtube and watch the videos on the D700. It is one of the best DSLRs that Nikon has produced and is exceptional in low light. People seem to be so concerned about the pixel count of their processor and lose sight of the fact that 95% of the pictures taken are every enlarged to giant size. I have seen any number of prints made from 6mp and printed at sizes up to 30x40 and sometimes larger. Folks seem to forget that large and very large prints are to be viewed from greater distances than our usual small prints. Remember that when this digital photography started, Six thousand dollar cameras came with 3mp sensors! Just remember that there are a lot of great bargains out there in senior equipment (don't like the word older!) both in cameras and lenses and accessories. Some things we need to buy new but houses, cars, and photo equipment are not necessarily required to be new. I refuse to buy a brand new car, get in drive it off the lot and thereby lose $5000 to $10,000 (and maybe more) of its value. Also I really do not want to buy photo equipment that in one year may lose half of its value. Well I guess I have rambled on enough. Just don't restrict yourself to the latest and greatest when and oldie but goody may be just the ticket. Of course all of this is my opinion and subject to change from time to time.

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Dec 1, 2018 12:13:26   #
cjc2 Loc: Hellertown PA
 
Chris T wrote:
Chris ... that said - which of those two (D5, D850) do you prefer - in the lowest light situations?



Interesting question to which I personally don't have an answer, just an opinion. When shooting night football, which I just completed for the year, I use the D5 with a 400/2.8 and the D850 with a 70-200/2.8. I am happy with the results of both but I think I prefer the D5 images just a smidgeon. As a former D810 owner/user I think the low light performance of that camera was better than that of the D850, but again, by a small measure. I switched to the D850 not because I was unhappy with the D810, but because I found it useless for sports action, mainly due to its buffer. None of what I said is scientific or fact based, it just my musings. I find the D500 a damn good camera, especially for the price. Pair it with a 300/4 PF and you've got one powerful, lightweight monster! The D500 doesn't get close to the others in low light performance. Best of luck.

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Dec 1, 2018 12:30:20   #
Chris T Loc: from England across the pond to New England
 
cjc2 wrote:
Interesting question to which I personally don't have an answer, just an opinion. When shooting night football, which I just completed for the year, I use the D5 with a 400/2.8 and the D850 with a 70-200/2.8. I am happy with the results of both but I think I prefer the D5 images just a smidgeon. As a former D810 owner/user I think the low light performance of that camera was better than that of the D850, but again, by a small measure. I switched to the D850 not because I was unhappy with the D810, but because I found it useless for sports action, mainly due to its buffer. None of what I said is scientific or fact based, it just my musings. I find the D500 a damn good camera, especially for the price. Pair it with a 300/4 PF and you've got one powerful, lightweight monster! The D500 doesn't get close to the others in low light performance. Best of luck.
Interesting question to which I personally don't h... (show quote)


As you've already indicated, Chris ... just opinions ... never thought of the D810 as being BETTER in low-light performance than the newer D850!

As to the D500 being lighter than the D810 / D850 / D5 (especially that one) ... it's STILL a heavy camera!!!!!

I suspect you gave the edge to the D5 - because of the higher investment ... certainly it's quicker, but surely the D850 has the edge in LLP.

Anyway ... just my reflections ... haven't had any hands-on with any of them ... the D7100's more my speed ... lighter, by far, than the D7000.

I suspect - when all elements are factored in ... the D7500 has the best compromise of LLP and lightness ... but, that's just my take ...

Happy Shooting, Chris ....


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