bfstuff

Thanks for the advice on pressing with the 80D, and I stand corrected (by several folks) on the issue of using EF-S on EF mount.

I would like to ask how you calculated 12 MP in crop with an EF-S lens on EOS R and, and why I would not need to do any auto focus micro adjustments with the EOS R, especially if I'm using both an EF-S lens and an adapter? Is there something I'm missing about how AF works in mirrorless vice DSLR with mirror?

imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida

I cannot explain the exact math - but I believe it comes to - after cropping - you only have 43% pixel area left - sounds crazy - but true. - Google is your friend

Mirrorless cameras use the pixels to focus with - there is no mechanical intermediary in between dictating focus as there is with a DSLR ( because the mirror is in the way) - so no compensations/adjustments necessary. - Google is your friend.

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mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey

A full frame sensor is 36 mm x 24 mm for an approximate total area 864 sq mm. A Canon crop sensor is approximately 22 mm x 15 mm for an approximate area of 330 sq mm. That means the area of the EOS R full frame sensor covered when using a crop lens would be approx 38.2% of the full sensor, (330/864 x 100) and 38.2% of the 30.3 megapixels of the full sensor would be around 11.6 megapixels, making the EOS R a very expensive 12 megapixel camera for those planning to only use crop lenses.

rdarlington43 Loc: Charlotte, NC

I fully agree with #4.

Orson Burleigh Loc: Annapolis, Maryland, USA

The EOS R seems to be a new option that in many ways splits the difference if one has been considering 5D Mark IV or 6D Mark II for an upgrade to full-frame. The EOS R will provide the articulating screen of the 6D II, the higher MP sensor of the and 4K cropped video capability of the 5D IV, and add the ability to use Canon EF-S lenses via an adapter.

The ability to use EF-S lenses probably shouldn't weigh very heavily into one's calculations, except for the EF-S lenses' particular adaptability to the EOS R cropped 4K video. Camera Lab's Gordan Laing demonstrated this EF-S particular 4K utility with the adapter in a video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnmrKfNs7S8 ). After showing the narrow cramped field of view afforded by the EOS R's cropped 4K with a full frame lens at 24mm, Laing substituted an EF-S 10-18mm IS STM lens (borrowed from Kai Wong) on the EOS R to demonstrate the utility of the EF-S very wide lens for vlogers and selfie shooters using 4K. I expect that Canon's older but still very good EF-S 17-55mm f2.8 IS USM would also work well with the EOS R for 4K video work.

The 80D, especially as a refurb, is probably the optimal choice for an immediate or near term upgrade that doesn't crush a budget. My 80D is usually mounted on an EF 100-400mm lens, but when a smallish grab and go kit is wanted, the 80D goes into a small bag with the EF-S 17-55mm IS USM and an EF-S 55-250mm IS STM.

Picture Taker Loc: Michigan Thumb

If you want to look at long term I would not recommend buying (from my experience) any "S" lenses as if and when you go to a full frame camera you must replace the "S" lenses. I also think the quality of full fame lens are better in general (cost more).

imagemeister Loc: mid east Florida

Thanks for the exact math !

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amfoto1 Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA

When it's used with an EF-S lens the EOS R automatically crops the image and what remains is under 12MP. So, in effect, with an EF-S lens fitted to it, the camera will have 33% less resolution than your current APS-C camera (or half the resolution of a more recent APS-C model, such as T7i DSLR or M5 mirrorless).



There is no difference, whether the image is cropped in camera or you were to crop it to the same dimensions in post-processing. IF you could do it in post, you MIGHT be able to crop a little less with some EF-S lenses that don't vignette as heavily or if it were possible for you to counter some of the vignetting with exposure adjustments. HOWEVER, as I read it, that's not an option because the EOS R will switch to its 1.6X crop mode automatically whenever an EF-S lens is fitted via an adapter. (Note: third party "crop only" lenses may be different.... The EOS R might not recognize them and won't automatically crop. But this remains to be seen).



There is no need for Micro Focus Adjustment with mirrorless cameras. The reason it's found on DSLRs is because they use an array of autofocus sensors separate from the image sensor.... Often positioned in the bottom of the mirror box and with the image of the subject being focused upon reflected to the AF array with one or more mirrors. In other words, there's a fairly complex light path to the AF sensors in a DSLR, which can and does get slightly out of sync with the image sensor in any number of ways, requiring adjustments.

Mirrorless cameras, on the other hand, have their autofocus sensors embedded right in the image sensor itself. This simplifies things greatly. Anything that's "in focus" as far as the AF sensors are concerned is bound to also be precisely in focus on the image sensor, since both the AF sensors and the image sensor are one and the same.



Why do you feel the need to "upgrade" to full frame? Do you make very large prints from your images? Say 16x24" or larger?

If not, you might be better served sticking with an APS-C camera and simply updating to one of those.... such as the 80D.

In fact, you may want to consider the latest M-series mirrorless, which are all APS-C (same as your camera and 80D) AND all of which use newer versions of the 24MP sensor in the 80D. An EOS M5, M6, M50 or M100 would allow you to continue using your EF-S lenses or any EF lenses, via adapters... or purchase EF-M lenses specially for the camera, which don't require adapters. There are steadily increasing third party lenses being offered for M-series cameras, too. Being mirrorless, M-series have the same advantage of not needing Micro Focus Adjustment.

Full frame cameras tend to be bigger and heavier, though the mirrorless may be a little more compact. But lenses for full frame need to produce a larger image circle. Compare an EF-S 10-18mm with an EF 16-35mm, for example. Or, if you use a 300mm focal length a lot now on APS-C, with a full frame camera you'll need 500mm. And there's not very much difference between the size/weight of full frame capable lenses for DSLRs or mirrorless. It also will be many years before there's a selection of native lenses for the EOS R, too. (In roughly five years, Canon has only developed eight EF-M lenses for the M-series... compared to close to 90 EF/EF-S lenses that can be used on your or any Canon APS-C DSLR... or about 60-65 EF lenses for the full frame DSLRs and adaptable to the EOS R).

Basically, full frame cameras "require" full frame lenses... limiting your selection to some extent, and to bigger, heavier and more expensive lenses. And it really doesn't matter very much, whether the camera is a DSLR or a FF mirrorless.

The EOS R is very cool and has a lot neat features. It's going to be a very good camera for some people. But it's not going to be "right" for everyone. In fact, IMO most people don't really need full frame either, be it a DSLR or mirrorless. (People THINK they need full frame because they view and judge their images at ridiculously huge magnifications on their computer monitor.... Not that they actually use them or anyone else ever sees those images that large.)

jwn Loc: SOUTHEAST GEORGIA USA

The R will accept ef and ef-s lens with the adapter. It's a cross of the 6dii and 5div. Easy move up form the T2. I would do it. You already are in crop with T2. I don't know what lenses you have but if you can manage getting the R with the new24-105 and sell you EF-S it may make sense. ( I have 6d and 5Div the R has taken the best of both).

TonyBot

Amfoto1's response is one you should listen to. I have both the APSc and FF Canons, and have blown up smallish (as in less than 20%) portions of my 60D's shots and gotten more than acceptable - and salable - results. I *do* like the 6Dii better (perhaps to satisfy my GAS attack), but the larger viewfinder image through the eyepiece is easier for me to work with, with the vision problem I have. I would guess that the EOS-R just introduced is really a more-featured mirrorless 6Dii, and since it is an EVF (and the view screen is about the same at three inches or so), there is really no advantage to spending two grand plus for the body, unless the few ounces is critical to you. AND, the available lenses that will take advantage of the FF size sensor are, at this point, quite expensive. You *will* be able to use your EF-s lenses, but you definitely will lose some resolution.

I would advise to go with the 80D - which is sorta a "junior" 7Dii - and use the grand you'll save for additional, perhaps "L" class, glass.

Either way, good luck!

Selene03

Amfoto's response is excellent and to the point. I think you might be best served by getting the 80d. It is a more full-featured modernized version of what you have and you can use all of your lenses with it. I use the Sl2, a scaled down version of the 80d, as my "kayak" camera. I have been able to get some really good bird photographs with it. The detail and ease of use are impressive. The 80D is much like the Sl2 but has additional features, including the ability to micro adjust lenses. I periodically check Canon refurbished from time to time for sales and sometimes get lucky. As has been pointed out, one of Canon's m-version mirrorless cameras might also work for you. Good luck!

bfstuff

Thanks for the math and the wisdom. I was trying to use the crop sensor factor (1.6 of focal length) rather than the actual dimensions of each sensor. That does lead me to another question though... If Canon can pack 24 MP in a cropped 15 x 22 mm sensor, it should be able to pack nearly 75 MP in a full sized sensor... Seems like they're sand-bagging their capabilities.

For all... thanks for the terrific insight! It wouldn't make sense to go from 16 MP on my T2 to 12 MP on a FF mirror-less (after cropping) I think I'll press on with my original plan for the D80 and cross the FF bridge when I need to, if ever.

mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey

First, a correction. The t2i has an 18mp sensor, not 16. With regard to your question on crop vs full frame sensor design, this simplistic explanation from Amateur Astrophotography may help.

"The size of your sensor determines 2 things – how much light it can capture, and how wide your field of view will be using the same lens. The sensor itself is covered in “pixels”. The individual light collectors on your sensor chip are called photosites. A 24 MP sensor will have 24 million colour photosites which collect the light focused on them by the lens. Like the sensor itself, the size of the photosites matter. On a full frame sensor, the individual photosites are larger to fill up the larger physical dimensions of the chip, therefore gather more light. And inversely, fitting 24 million photosites on a smaller physical chip requires making each individual photosite smaller."