Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main Photography Discussion
Yesteryear vs the Present.
Page <prev 2 of 4 next> last>>
Apr 6, 2018 01:46:11   #
skingfong Loc: Sacramento
 
sxrich wrote:
I no longer even think about or worry about prime vrs. zoom sharpness, or vibration or anything like that anymore. i just posted some street shots taken with a supposedly very average kit zoom lens. Could the images be sharper, sure with better camera and glass. I guess my thoughts are now about the lighting, composition, impact and visualizing the final image. Would some images be sharper with a different lens, i guess but people don't pixel peep. I shoot events and families and similar stuff, head shots. We all have favorite lenses and cameras but i control my aperture and shutter speed well enough to not have issues. i can hand hold my 70-200 2.8 turning off vr and shoot a play or musical from 50-75 ft and get a tack sharp shot and see the actors eyelashes and eye color. My point is that equipment is really good now, low noise cameras, really sharp zooms or at least sharp enough to see a pimple at 100 ft. Everything out now can produce a stellar image in the right hands. Just my humble opinion.
I no longer even think about or worry about prime ... (show quote)


I agree with everything you say. On the end of the spectrum there may be some who go extreme with tripod, mirror lock-up, prime lenses lower ISO limit to get the best shot possible. I don't think it's as critical with the technology and equipment we have nowadays.

Reply
Apr 6, 2018 02:26:16   #
tdekany Loc: Oregon
 
skingfong wrote:
I've experimented with using live view "mirror lockup" and weighing down the tripod. I've never thought about putting the weight the weight on the camera which seems to make a lot of sense vs weighing down the tripod.


It is 2018 but for more than 3 years, I have been using my camera’s electronic shutter. Or the touchscreen. Or control the camera with my iPhone.

Reply
Apr 6, 2018 03:53:48   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
skingfong wrote:
In the old days when camera bodies were all metal, the bodies were more resonant. They would ring like a bell or vibrate. Today's camera are built differently and not as resonant. So is shutter or camera vibration still a really big issue? In the recent tripod thread I saw a few mentioned dampening vibration with carbon fiber. How valid is this today?

I see posts about prime is sharper than zooms. There are some really sharp zooms out there today which are better than the zooms of the past.

I see posts about not using hi ISO or going over a certain ISO. Today's cameras perform much better at higher ISO's.

On the other hand if you're a purist, I guess these issues can be very significant or if you still have older equipment. It also depends on how much of a purist one is. If that's the case, a purist should always be on a carbon fiber tripod, only use prime lenses, and never go past ISO 800 etc. I can understand striving for the best result but how far can one go and how practical is it?
In the old days when camera bodies were all metal,... (show quote)


It's not the resonance in the camera body that causes vibration. It's the moving mirror and shutter. If you google shutter shock or vibration you will see a lot of good info, even pertaining to some mirrorless cameras like the Sony A7:

http://www.sonyalphaforum.com/topic/6403-how-to-solve-the-a7r-shutter-shock-problem-without-adding-weight-to-the-camera/

https://diglloyd.com/blog/2014/20140116_1-Sony-A7R-shutter-vibration.html

https://www.discoverdigitalphotography.com/2015/what-are-mirror-slap-and-shutter-shock/

Carbon fiber tripods with thick legs and high quality heads are the best way to mitigate this type of vibration, along with solid technique. Don't expect a $200 tripod and head combo to be anywhere as stable as a proper tripod. There are many myths that need to be put to rest - a tripod needs to have 2x the load capacity of your gear, a heavy tripod is better than a light one, there is no difference between aluminum and carbon, and the best one I heard yet - if the tripod can support bowling ball, it should be good enough.

There zooms that are as sharp as primes and vice versa. Broad generalizations ought to be ignored. Old zooms were, as you have observed, often not as sharp as the new stuff.

The overall goal for sharp, clear, high quality images is to use the lowest ISO, fastest shutter speed, and the sharpest aperture. For many lenses the sharpest aperture is often 2- 3 stops from wide open. Some lenses, like long telephoto primes, are often sharpest at maximum aperture. Exceptions to the above goals are often made for creative interpretation - like using a slow shutter speed combined with flawless panning technique to show movement, or using a large aperture to isolate the subject with shallow depth of field, or a tiny aperture to have deep DoF.

For pros, the deciding factor is the client, who will demand a specific level of quality. Typically a pro will be able to justify the best quality gear, including a support system (or any other component) that will not fail at a critical moment. Anyone who desires that high level of quality will either buy the best gear, or do the necessary homework to find suitable substitutes, usually keeping an eye on budget.

And for the naysayers that claim they have never had shutter shock or mirror vibration, please describe the gear, setup, technique, and post a result.

Reply
 
 
Apr 6, 2018 06:43:20   #
jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY
 
skingfong wrote:
In the old days when camera bodies were all metal, the bodies were more resonant. They would ring like a bell or vibrate. Today's camera are built differently and not as resonant. So is shutter or camera vibration still a really big issue? In the recent tripod thread I saw a few mentioned dampening vibration with carbon fiber. How valid is this today?

I see posts about prime is sharper than zooms. There are some really sharp zooms out there today which are better than the zooms of the past.

I see posts about not using hi ISO or going over a certain ISO. Today's cameras perform much better at higher ISO's.

On the other hand if you're a purist, I guess these issues can be very significant or if you still have older equipment. It also depends on how much of a purist one is. If that's the case, a purist should always be on a carbon fiber tripod, only use prime lenses, and never go past ISO 800 etc. I can understand striving for the best result but how far can one go and how practical is it?
In the old days when camera bodies were all metal,... (show quote)


A lot of study has gone into shake caused by the shutter and mirror. I can be a concern within a certain slow shutter range. If I can find an article or two, I'll post links.

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/the-shutter-vibration-issue-explained-by-joseph-holmes/
https://camtest.eu/technology/knowledge/63-impact-of-mirror-and-shutter-induced-camera-shake

I doubt that I would see a difference in sharpness between my primes and zooms. I think you'd have to magnify quite a bit to see significant differences.

I recently did a few headshots with the camera at 12,800 ISO, unbeknownst to me (D750). I didn't realize the slight graininess until I zoomed in to sharpen the focus in LR. Of course, 100 ISO was better, but not that anyone would notice.

Reply
Apr 6, 2018 07:24:12   #
Flickwet Loc: NEOhio
 
Tripod? Sandbags? Time for a mirrorless camera I think. Add VR or the equivalent, hello Olympus. You’re set. With it built into the body my old primes are even stabilized. And...I think modern zooms are where all the modern research and development money go, which narrows the difference in zoom vs prime

Reply
Apr 6, 2018 07:29:06   #
Jimmy T Loc: Virginia
 
I'm thankful and embrace the technology available to us today. I will continue to use and upgrade my equipment as significant equipment improvements are made available. I really enjoy photography and the quest of capturing the moment and improving my skills.
skingfong wrote:
In the old days when camera bodies were all metal, the bodies were more resonant. They would ring like a bell or vibrate. Today's camera are built differently and not as resonant. So is shutter or camera vibration still a really big issue? In the recent tripod thread I saw a few mentioned dampening vibration with carbon fiber. How valid is this today?

I see posts about prime is sharper than zooms. There are some really sharp zooms out there today which are better than the zooms of the past.

I see posts about not using hi ISO or going over a certain ISO. Today's cameras perform much better at higher ISO's.

On the other hand if you're a purist, I guess these issues can be very significant or if you still have older equipment. It also depends on how much of a purist one is. If that's the case, a purist should always be on a carbon fiber tripod, only use prime lenses, and never go past ISO 800 etc. I can understand striving for the best result but how far can one go and how practical is it?
In the old days when camera bodies were all metal,... (show quote)



Reply
Apr 6, 2018 07:34:02   #
Flickwet Loc: NEOhio
 
Flickwet wrote:
Tripod? Sandbags? Time for a mirrorless camera I think. Add VR or the equivalent, hello Olympus. You’re set. With it built into the body my old primes are even stabilized. And...I think modern zooms are where all the modern research and development money go, which narrows the difference in zoom vs prime


And don’t get me wrong I usually use a tripod with the Linhoff tech 4, never with the Rolleiflex.

Reply
 
 
Apr 6, 2018 07:58:52   #
Jimmy T Loc: Virginia
 
I couldn't agree more. Currently, with the equipment that I have, my only concern is noise. Well that and improving my technique.
sxrich wrote:
I no longer even think about or worry about prime vrs. zoom sharpness, or vibration or anything like that anymore. i just posted some street shots taken with a supposedly very average kit zoom lens. Could the images be sharper, sure with better camera and glass. I guess my thoughts are now about the lighting, composition, impact and visualizing the final image. Would some images be sharper with a different lens, i guess but people don't pixel peep. I shoot events and families and similar stuff, head shots. We all have favorite lenses and cameras but i control my aperture and shutter speed well enough to not have issues. i can hand hold my 70-200 2.8 turning off vr and shoot a play or musical from 50-75 ft and get a tack sharp shot and see the actors eyelashes and eye color. My point is that equipment is really good now, low noise cameras, really sharp zooms or at least sharp enough to see a pimple at 100 ft. Everything out now can produce a stellar image in the right hands. Just my humble opinion.
I no longer even think about or worry about prime ... (show quote)



Reply
Apr 6, 2018 08:00:44   #
Brent Rowlett Loc: Atlanta, GA
 
I muse over the constant discussions about the sharpest lenses and cameras...pure mental masturbation.

In most cases the best photos and video use settings backing off sharpness and detail. Do you really want to capture every zit, hair follicle and black head in your subject’s face.

Excellent contrast created by good lighting is far more important than the so called sharpest lense to produce a print that pops. Most of the detail discussed cannot be printed anyway with printing press at 300 dpi. In other words a good photographer is far more important than the camera and lens.

Reply
Apr 6, 2018 08:06:05   #
Stephan G
 
skingfong wrote:
In the old days when camera bodies were all metal, the bodies were more resonant. They would ring like a bell or vibrate. Today's camera are built differently and not as resonant. So is shutter or camera vibration still a really big issue? In the recent tripod thread I saw a few mentioned dampening vibration with carbon fiber. How valid is this today?

I see posts about prime is sharper than zooms. There are some really sharp zooms out there today which are better than the zooms of the past.

I see posts about not using hi ISO or going over a certain ISO. Today's cameras perform much better at higher ISO's.

On the other hand if you're a purist, I guess these issues can be very significant or if you still have older equipment. It also depends on how much of a purist one is. If that's the case, a purist should always be on a carbon fiber tripod, only use prime lenses, and never go past ISO 800 etc. I can understand striving for the best result but how far can one go and how practical is it?
In the old days when camera bodies were all metal,... (show quote)


Technique, Technique, Technique, Equipment.

That is what was emphasized to me a few decades ago when I started photography. Because of age and physical ailment, I find myself having to re-emphasize this now. My photography skills are slowly climbing back up, but I do have to modify a few things. I no longer am capable of standing "rock solid" as when I was younger. Again, adjustments to all four categories noted above. (This is true for anybody when they go past the last age groups in just about all polls.) We do what we can do, and adjust continually the rest.

Reply
Apr 6, 2018 08:38:27   #
camerapapi Loc: Miami, Fl.
 
The most significant difference between yesterday and today is technology. We had all mechanical cameras that had to be used with a separate exposure meter. That changed and cameras began to gain a little more technological using electrical parts, automation and in camera exposure meters.
Now we have digital, something that we can see but cannot touch like we used to do with negatives. We have a marvelous technology complemented by extraordinarily good software.
Professional zooms are as sharp as prime lenses. Modern zooms are of excellent quality compared to those of the past. Modern cameras have an excellent performance when it comes to high ISO. I do not like to go beyond ISO 1600 but others could feel differently.
I have no experience with vibrations and a carbon fiber tripod. I have never been in an earthquake photographing. I NEVER had any issues using an aluminum tripod and I still use them today.
You did not mention the word refraction that we know tends to degrade images at small lens openings. I have never had a second thought using a small aperture when I needed one.
Shutter vibration is not an issue like it was in the past because software is handling that. dSLR have damped mirrors to control it. I have no experience with that because when I am serious about what I am doing I lock the mirror in my dSLR bodies.
Great thing I am not a pixel peeper or a purist.

Reply
 
 
Apr 6, 2018 08:53:50   #
bmike101 Loc: Gainesville, Florida
 
martinfisherphoto wrote:
You can own the most expensive camera and lens combo available and it will only produce images as good as the photographer using the equipment. Folks put way to much emphasis on the equipment. Take any picture with any camera at ISO 800 blow it up to 200% on your huge computer screen and it will look like crap. That is not how you measure the cameras abilities. When will people learn it's the subject plus technique that will blow any camera lens combo out of the water. Yes if you can afford good equipment, go ahead and purchase, but this will Not guarantee by any means a sharp, noiseless, quality photograph. Learn the art of photography it will win hands down time and time again.....
You can own the most expensive camera and lens com... (show quote)


One thing I have noticed is that auto focus does not get things perfectly sharp. It might be my camera but still.

Reply
Apr 6, 2018 09:43:48   #
GAS496 Loc: Arizona
 
skingfong wrote:
I've experimented with using live view "mirror lockup" and weighing down the tripod. I've never thought about putting the weight the weight on the camera which seems to make a lot of sense vs weighing down the tripod.


I saw a demonstration similar to Bob’s. I was skeptical at the beginning. The camera was a Nikon 800E with a prime lens and a Gitzo carbon fiber tripod with the image projected on a screen. Vibration was evident no matter how gently the camera was handled/touched, mirror locked up or not. The only thing to dampen the vibration was a bag of gravel placed on top of the camera.

So those that have talked about knowing proper camera technique is more important than owning the latest high end equipment in creating an image get the nod on this one.

Reply
Apr 6, 2018 09:53:42   #
aellman Loc: Boston MA
 
TriX wrote:
Well said.

Regarding primes, as good as modern zooms are (and some are excellent), the best primes are still visually sharper than the best zooms. I recently posted a sharpness test using a Canon 135 f2L (20 year old design) +. 1.4x Canon MKII extender providing ~195mm vs a Canon 70-200 f2.8L at the same FL, and the prime, even with an extender, was noticeably sharper.


IMHO, it's all about when the various limitations of equipment actually become noticeable. If i can't perceive the difference between an image shot with my kit zoom and my 50mm prime, then it is no longer an issue.

Reply
Apr 6, 2018 10:03:08   #
Fotoartist Loc: Detroit, Michigan
 
Having and knowing and using the best equipment and technique is the admirable goal.
But after you achieve some technically "perfect" images, then what? Do you attach a note to them certifying that these are technically perfect, pure fine art, the best possible, to what end?

I shot the barn scene as a panorama of 6 photos, each in HDR. The compiled photo flattened was over 100mb. It took hours to do. You can see insects on the plants if you blew it up enough. But all I ever made was a 16x20 print. So what?
Brent Rowlett wrote:
I muse over the constant discussions about the sharpest lenses and cameras...pure mental masturbation.

In most cases the best photos and video use settings backing off sharpness and detail. Do you really want to capture every zit, hair follicle and black head in your subject’s face.

Excellent contrast created by good lighting is far more important than the so called sharpest lense to produce a print that pops. Most of the detail discussed cannot be printed anyway with printing press at 300 dpi. In other words a good photographer is far more important than the camera and lens.
I muse over the constant discussions about the sha... (show quote)


(Download)

Reply
Page <prev 2 of 4 next> last>>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main Photography Discussion
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.