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Aug 17, 2017 16:44:44   #
Peterff Loc: O'er The Hills and Far Away, in Themyscira.
 
James Slick wrote:
I had to use sarcasm as many people are willingly ignorant. Trying to convey the real importance would be lost on them.
I was on a math blog (nerdy,I know.) And someone was arguing that we spend too much time studying history in schools, because, unlike math, it had no "real world" value. I countered that we should not teach math (particularly arithmetic) in schools because everyone has a calculator on their phone. The guy thought that was idiocy. But he failed to see that just because in the "real world" I don't go around solving trigonometry problems in my head daily doesn't mean learning math is useless.
I had to use sarcasm as many people are willingly ... (show quote)


I agree, I used to teach math in the 70s/80s, and I'm going to a quantum computing meet up tonight! How the world turns!

"To infinity, and beyond!" - Buzz Lightyear.

Anyhow, I have to go now. I can't be in both places at once!

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Aug 17, 2017 17:20:49   #
Vince68 Loc: Wappingers Falls, NY
 
cthahn wrote:
We are about to throw away all evidence of the Civil War in this country, so I am not sure about the significance of anything from WWII.


Do you ever post a comment that is worthwhile, helpful, or that actually pertains to any type of question that someone posts on this website????? Or do you just come on here to respond with the most idiotic, stupid, uneducated remarks day after day? If you don't have anything worthwhile to contribute, what are you doing here in the first place other than annoying people with your obnoxious remarks.

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Aug 17, 2017 17:22:46   #
Peterff Loc: O'er The Hills and Far Away, in Themyscira.
 
burkphoto wrote:
Peter, thanks for a reasoned opinion on this issue.

There are many who want to destroy all evidence of the confederacy, and many who wish to flaunt it, yelling, "The South shall rise again!" Those are fantasies, surely, but many just want to preserve their heritage, while many others just want to erase a sore spot.

I agree, putting the statues and monuments in a museum is smart. Greensboro just renamed a school and a park to forget the original namesake's dedication to slavery. But his story remains in the local history.

Violence and extremism of all kinds are unnecessary and only lead to conflict.

It's been weird, living in the Carolinas most of my life, but having Midwestern parents. I have learned a good bit of history as presented by Northerners and a good bit of history as presented by Southerners. Each points to quite different reasons for that war, with quite different outcomes. I tend to see both sides... to a point.

Yes, it was most important as the war to end forced slavery, but it was also a war of protest against Northern economic oppression of Southern progress. In the mid-19th century, most of the South had an agrarian economy. In NC, many grew tobacco, cotton, peanuts, rice, and other crops. Most of the crops and other raw materials were shipped North to manufacturers, converted to finished goods, and sold all over. But there were some onerous taxes involved, and there was social and economic suppression of information and technology that would have allowed the advancement of the Southern economy to include manufacturing. Southerners knew that if they lost the almost free labor of slaves, their economy would be brought to the brink of ruin, at least for a time. The war proved that true, although most *Americans* would agree the abolition of slavery was worth it.

It wasn't until the turn of the 20th century that the economy of the South began to include a lot more manufacturing. The pace of change accelerated slowly at first, and rapidly after air conditioning became widely available in the 1950s. "Rust belt" companies gradually located plants in the rural and suburban South, mostly to get away from union labor and exploit cheap water, power, natural gas, and wood. The rise of educational institutions had much to do with it, as did urbanization and urban migration in some areas.

Of course, after NAFTA, companies escaped the South for the Far East and South America... Ah, the law of unintended consequences is always hard at work!

The aristocratic sons and daughters of the Confederacy still bear grudges over the loss of their economic status "way back when", and the subsequent "economic punishment" they endured for several decades after the war. The resentment is different among upper, middle, and lower (white) classes, too. Poor whites tend to have a completely different set of resentments (labor competition among the races) from the learned upper class. And the middle class tends to be irrationally schizoid about their history. They, too, resented the introduction of another (paid) labor pool after the Civil War, but no longer want to perform the menial labor in fields and mills that immigrants and foreign workers will do willingly. They'll flip burgers or do data entry, but won't scrub floors or pick crops, and they won't lower their living standards to compete with foreign workers. It's taken several generations for education to become a priority as a ticket to success here. In the North, that ticket was identified rather clearly during the depression, as my parents were always quick to point out.

If I've heard it once, I've heard it a hundred times. "The sins of the forefathers are passed down for seven generations." Well, 7 generations after the war was the year 2005... So we ought to see some progress by now. We do, but pockets of cancerous, racist, narcissistic nostalgia remain.

So it's complicated... Cities like Charlotte, NC, where I lived for 35 years, are huge melting pots of people from all over the USA and the world, in addition to their small contingents of local descendants. So they tend to be pretty liberal and tolerant, by comparison with smaller towns. That liberalism is another source of conflict. NC is a purple state, with the main urban markets predominantly liberal, and most of the rural areas quite conservative.

So when I see news like we saw last week, I cringe and wonder what will pop up next --- and where?
Peter, thanks for a reasoned opinion on this issue... (show quote)


Very well said, Sir. I'm a Brit, and we carry a huge legacy of wrong doing in the world's history. We don't seem to get tarred much by the brush of slavery, yet it was the second sons of British aristocracy that were frequently the plantation owners. Our ships that transported enslaved people from Africa to the West Indies and the Americas, and many died in transit. Then all the idiotic things that we have done in the British Imperial era, drawing boundaries and setting laws that we are all still having trouble with today.

Being an immigrant to the USA (yes, legal for anyone that cares) I find the complexities of US history fascinating. I enjoy the very diverse cultures that I have experienced, north, south, east or west. Big cities and remote small town dive bars. There are good people everywhere, and there are also some bad. Respect for people and their history and circumstances is very important, and has been very helpful in maintaining my personal safety in certain places. On the other hand there are people, places, or circumstances that are best avoided, here, in the UK, or elsewhere.

One of my favorite comments about the civil war came from a guy in a bar in New Orleans - one of my favorite cities: "Civil war? There was nothing civil about it!"

When I was a young teenager my father said something that became hard wired in my brain: "Everyone you meet, regardless of what they look like, regardless of their station in life, deserves your respect. They know something that you don't know. They can do something that you can't do. They deserve your respect, and your job is to find out why."

That advice has saved my ass several times. He also said some other things that registered with me. About being in the Egyptian desert during WWII: "You had to be careful about the water. Boil it three times, then throw it away and drink beer!" My favorite - which he later declined to own up to - was: "When wine, women, and song get too much for you, give up singing!"

Cheers, and thank you for your excellent viewpoint on the cultures that we live in.

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Aug 17, 2017 17:46:51   #
Peterff Loc: O'er The Hills and Far Away, in Themyscira.
 
Bobspez wrote:
There's a guy in the neighborhood that flies a large threadbare confederate flag from his porch on holidays. It's a middle class diverse neighborhood. Black, white, hispanic, middle eastern, everyone gets along. I just scratch my head when I walk past that flag.


We have a neighbor on our block that displayed a large Stars and Stripes as well as the Gadsden flag on Independence day. Why not, we are supposed to be a free country after all, although we're not sure what the intent was. They remained up until the Charlottesville incident. Now they are gone. I have no idea of the home owners' beliefs, affiliations, or attitudes. I respect their right to hold them, and to express them, but I very much appreciate their sensibility to not furthering any more civil discord by a display of symbols that could be misinterpreted.

I live in a very liberal and multi-ethnic city, but even if our neighbors' political views are not the same as mine, I would not want to see them or their property targeted by anyone with a differing point of view. They are our neighbors and part of our community. We also have a couple of cops living on our block. They are very discrete, but I'm sure that it doesn't do us any harm! Oh, and to be clear, it wasn't our LE neighbors displaying the flags.

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Aug 17, 2017 19:33:54   #
Bobspez Loc: Southern NJ, USA
 
Agreed. That neighbor didn't fly the confederate flag today. Instead he had a small American flag in a flower pot. Saw 12 American flags flying on my one mile walk through the neighborhood today.

Peterff wrote:
We have a neighbor on our block that displayed a large Stars and Stripes as well as the Gadsden flag on Independence day. Why not, we are supposed to be a free country after all, although we're not sure what the intent was. They remained up until the Charlottesville incident. Now they are gone. I have no idea of the home owners' beliefs, affiliations, or attitudes. I respect their right to hold them, and to express them, but I very much appreciate their sensibility to not furthering any more civil discord by a display of symbols that could be misinterpreted.

I live in a very liberal and multi-ethnic city, but even if our neighbors' political views are not the same as mine, I would not want to see them or their property targeted by anyone with a differing point of view. They are our neighbors and part of our community. We also have a couple of cops living on our block. They are very discrete, but I'm sure that it doesn't do us any harm! Oh, and to be clear, it wasn't our LE neighbors displaying the flags.
We have a neighbor on our block that displayed a l... (show quote)

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Aug 17, 2017 19:56:36   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
I realize that the focus of this thread has veered from the original intent, but such is the nature of conversation.

Here are applicable words from a well-known liberal-turned-conservative, published in 1949:

“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”

― George Orwell, 1984

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Aug 17, 2017 20:16:22   #
Bobspez Loc: Southern NJ, USA
 
Orwell was never a conservative. He was a socialist. He was against Hitler and he was against Stalin, and he was against British Imperialism. He was for the common man and against any sort of totalitarian state, whether fascist or communist. Anyone who read 1984 could not believe Orwell was ever or ever would be a conservative.

larryepage wrote:
I realize that the focus of this thread has veered from the original intent, but such is the nature of conversation.

Here are applicable words from a well-known liberal-turned-conservative, published in 1949:

“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.”

― George Orwell, 1984
I realize that the focus of this thread has veered... (show quote)

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Aug 17, 2017 21:20:06   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
That's what I thought. Checked it out. He changed his thinking late in life. 1984 was published in 1949...one year before he died and several years after he changed his views

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Aug 17, 2017 21:41:43   #
Bobspez Loc: Southern NJ, USA
 
I did check it out on wiki and saw nothing about him changing any views before he died, other than disassociating himself from the communists. As far as I know he stayed a socialist to the end. If you have any source to refute that I'd be interested to check it out. The fact that he was anti communist does not mean he was a conservative. He saw the communists under Stalin to be totalitarian tyrants, no different than the fascists under Franco and Hitler, or the British in India. He wasn't totally happy with the Labor party either, but stated he would work within it to change it. As far as I know he wasn't anti labor party because they were too liberal, but because they weren't delivering for the workers. Bernie Sanders criticisms of Hillary didn't mean he became a conservative. He was against Hillary not because she was a liberal but because she wasn't liberal enough.

larryepage wrote:
That's what I thought. Checked it out. He changed his thinking late in life. 1984 was published in 1949...one year before he died and several years after he changed his views

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Aug 18, 2017 00:20:36   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
If you use Google, "George Orwell conservative" reveals several scholarly articles discussing his change of thinking after he volunteered to fight with the revolution in the Spanish Civil War but became disillusioned with the side for which he was fighting and changed his views.

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Aug 18, 2017 00:48:32   #
NorCal Bohemian
 
Peterff wrote:
"Yes, and no. First it is secession not succession. They are slightly different.

Secession from "The Union" or any other regime is an option under a democratic process. How or whether it is done is certainly an issue and worthy of discussion. ...
Let's not confuse this by disregarding the rights of democratic processes however misguided they may be. Brexit appears to be a dumb move by the UK, but it was the result of a democratic process. Should California be allowed to secede if its population wants to? Sure, it may not be a smart thing to do, but it should be allowed under a democratic process. Should the civilized parts of the US be allowed to secede from Texas? Sure if enough people wish to. What is to be done about Crimea, Ukraine, and Russia? It is all very complicated.
"Yes, and no. First it is secession not succe... (show quote)


Yes, and no. You are correct about my word use. I usually copyproof myself better. My bad.
The U.S. is a democratic Constitutional Republic, not a Democracy. The number one issue that was settled by the Civil War is that no state may secede from the Union. There were other issues - slavery being a major one, but NO secession by a state was won and guaranteed by the Union victory, and paid for in lots of blood. I live in the Bay Area of California myself, and have heard too much of the Cal-exit nonsense. It may well get enough signatures to be put on the ballot as a proposition. I highly doubt that it would pass - but even if it somehow did - there is zero chance of the U.S. surrendering it's west coast. We have much bigger problems to deal with in this state - like the coming pension tsunami, to be wasting time on foolishness that has no chance of happening. Brexit is for the Brits to decide. Crimea, Ukraine and Russia is very complicated - but Russia illegally annexed part of a neighboring country, a country whose sovereignty the U.S. and the U.K. guaranteed in 1994 in the Budapest Memorandum of Security Assurances, when they surrendered their nuclear weapons to Russia. While Crimea is of primarily Russian ethnicity today - that is because Stalin expelled the majority of the original inhabitants, that Taters, by force.

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Aug 18, 2017 02:23:17   #
mpsg1
 
Hi, I had a similar situation several years ago. My negatives were from the 30's and 40's mostly from an old box camera. I Purchasesd an Epson Perfection V600 Photo scanner. Then scanned all the negatives to my computer. Once there, I used PhotoShop to clean up scratches and age marks. This took a while as I had over 100 negatives. The results were excellent. I have them now stored on disc. I have even done some coloring of the old black and whites as well. If you have the time and patience, this is the best way to go.

If you are interested in seeing some of the results, email me at mpsg1@msn.com. I will be happy to share some of the results with you. Good Luck, Marty F.

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Aug 18, 2017 02:45:02   #
NorCal Bohemian
 
Bobspez wrote:
Orwell was never a conservative. He was a socialist. He was against Hitler and he was against Stalin, and he was against British Imperialism. He was for the common man and against any sort of totalitarian state, whether fascist or communist. Anyone who read 1984 could not believe Orwell was ever or ever would be a conservative.


larryepage is mostly correct. George Orwell was a socialist when he was young, but changed his views after his adventures fighting against Franco in Spain and on seeing Stalin's totalitarian brutality. Anyone who has read "Animal Farm" could not believe that Orwell was a socialist. I don't think that "conservative" describes him, either. He was an original thinker, and doesn't fit in a neat box. Individualist, and Libertarian, I think, is a pretty good description.

“The enemies of intellectual liberty always try to present their case as a plea for discipline versus individualism. The issue truth – versus - untruth is as far as possible kept in the background.”
George Orwell - penname of Eric Arthur Blair, English novelist, essayist, journalist, anti-totalitarian social critic. (1903-1950)

“The real division is not between conservatives and revolutionaries but between authoritarians and libertarians.”
George Orwell

“As with the Christian religion, the worst advertisement for Socialism is its adherents.”
George Orwell

“One sometimes gets the impression that the mere words ' Socialism ' and ' Communism ' draw towards them with magnetic force every fruit-juice drinker, nudist, sandal-wearer, sex-maniac, Quaker, 'Nature Cure' quack, pacifist, and feminist in England.”
George Orwell

“The tendency of advanced capitalism has been to enlarge the middle class and not to wipe it out, as it once seemed likely to do.”
George Orwell

“Liberal: a power worshipper without power.”
George Orwell

“So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot.”
George Orwell

“All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”
George Orwell“ from "Animal Farm"

“In our age there is no such thing as 'keeping out of politics.' All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred and schizophrenia.”
George Orwell

"I worked out an anarchistic theory that all government is evil, that the punishment always does more harm than the crime and the people can be trusted to behave decently if you will only let them alone.”
George Orwell

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Aug 18, 2017 03:24:18   #
NorCal Bohemian
 
NorCal Bohemian wrote:
"I usually copyproof myself better. My bad.
... the original inhabitants, that Taters, by force."

the Tatars - not "that Taters"! my spellcheck is failing me - and my "edit" tab disappeared!

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Aug 18, 2017 03:32:37   #
Peterff Loc: O'er The Hills and Far Away, in Themyscira.
 
NorCal Bohemian wrote:
Yes, and no. You are correct about my word use. I usually copyproof myself better. My bad.
The U.S. is a democratic Constitutional Republic, not a Democracy. The number one issue that was settled by the Civil War is that no state may secede from the Union. There were other issues - slavery being a major one, but NO secession by a state was won and guaranteed by the Union victory, and paid for in lots of blood. I live in the Bay Area of California myself, and have heard too much of the Cal-exit nonsense. It may well get enough signatures to be put on the ballot as a proposition. I highly doubt that it would pass - but even if it somehow did - there is zero chance of the U.S. surrendering it's west coast. We have much bigger problems to deal with in this state - like the coming pension tsunami, to be wasting time on foolishness that has no chance of happening. Brexit is for the Brits to decide. Crimea, Ukraine and Russia is very complicated - but Russia illegally annexed part of a neighboring country, a country whose sovereignty the U.S. and the U.K. guaranteed in 1994 in the Budapest Memorandum of Security Assurances, when they surrendered their nuclear weapons to Russia. While Crimea is of primarily Russian ethnicity today - that is because Stalin expelled the majority of the original inhabitants, that Taters, by force.
Yes, and no. You are correct about my word use. I ... (show quote)


We don't appear to be in any significant disagreement, except in the nuances. I'm no constitutional law expert, but I'm led to believe that there are circumstances where it may be possible for a state to secede from the Union.

Possible, highly unlikey, extremely difficult, and most probably a very bad idea. However there do appear to be ways. I'm not suggesting that I do or would support such a thing.

Europe is a very different thing. There is a formal mechanism for a member state to secede from the EU. Unfortunately, as the UK is beginning to discover it will be extremely difficult and most probably a very bad idea!

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