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RAW question (Editing)
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Mar 23, 2017 18:57:35   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
burkphoto wrote:
Semantics... I should have indicated *what happens* to the file I called a sidecar. If you open a Canon raw file on a Mac using a developer's text editor and extract the data, you'll see what I was talking about. No, it's not a *separate* sidecar file, visible to the OS, like Adobe uses. But it's a sidecar *to the original data*, stuffed inside the raw wrapper. And the original EXIF data is still there, and yes, you can have its effect back, because the REAL raw data is still unchanged. If the raw data WERE changed, you would see the change in every editor.
.......
Semantics... I should have indicated *what happens... (show quote)



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Mar 24, 2017 11:00:16   #
JayB Loc: Northeast US
 
mwsilvers wrote:
Not entirely correct with respect to the Canon DPP program which the OP is using. When edits are made to raw files in DPP they are stored within the raw file itself and the last modification date of the file is updated. There are no sidecars or databases entries. However, these changes can only be viewed in DPP. Other software like Lightroom will display the original data only and ignore the changes. Within DPP, the raw image can be restored to its as shot condition at anytime but the original file modify date is not restored.
Not entirely correct with respect to the Canon DPP... (show quote)


This was my experience in DPP and caused my concern. It seemed as if I had permanently edited the display instructions carried with the original RAW file (whatever that's called). I did not know that the file could be restored in DPP at any point. In Lightroom, which I'm just beginning to experiment with, there is a Reset button, which I'm thinking does the same thing - i.e., starts you over gain with the "as shot" status of the file. (Now that the original post calmed down, I'm reading through the whole thing, making notes. Thanks all.)

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Mar 24, 2017 11:06:05   #
Peterff Loc: O'er The Hills and Far Away, in Themyscira.
 
aerides wrote:
This was my experience in DPP and caused my concern. It seemed as if I had permanently edited the display instructions carried with the original RAW file (whatever that's called). I did not know that the file could be restored in DPP at any point. In Lightroom, which I'm just beginning to experiment with, there is a Reset button, which I'm thinking does the same thing - i.e., starts you over gain with the "as shot" status of the file. (Now that the original post calmed down, I'm reading through the whole thing, making notes. Thanks all.)
This was my experience in DPP and caused my concer... (show quote)


DPP has a reset function also. It also allows you to save multile modified .CR2 raw image files if you wish.

It's a pretty useful piece of software, not perfect, but neither is Adobe. They're all just tools....

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Mar 24, 2017 11:16:00   #
JayB Loc: Northeast US
 
DWU2 wrote:
You have a lot of questions - I'll take a shot at them:
Photo editors enable you to discard the edits, or to create a second version to edit. For example, in LR you can view the history of your edits, select a point where you want to make changes, and either re-edit the photo or create a virtual copy and subsequently edit it. In that case, you are not creating an unedited JPG, but a virtual copy. You could create an unedited JPG by exporting the unedited version to a JPG.


Helpful. Thank you.

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Mar 24, 2017 11:18:43   #
JayB Loc: Northeast US
 
TheDman wrote:
Pretty much figured the "if you exported it as a bitmap" part was implied, but some people have trouble with language.


I understood what you meant. Thanks.

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Mar 24, 2017 11:18:47   #
canon Lee
 
amfoto1 wrote:
Yes, there is.

It's a smaller size "preview" JPG of what the converted RAW will look like, assuming all the current image settings are used.

That small preview is used in-camera, too. It's what you see on the camera's LCD, when you playback an image that was shot RAW. It's also what the camera uses to display a histogram.

Any changes or adjustments you make to the RAW file aren't actually applied until it's converted, but are reflected in the JPEG preview file.



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Mar 24, 2017 11:23:56   #
JayB Loc: Northeast US
 
Apaflo wrote:
Okay, this is all words without any concept of what is actually being done.

The raw sensor data in the RAW file is not changed. It is not edited.

But it is only used in one way: it is read into memory from that file and fed directly to the demosaicing algorithm which is known as a converter. The output from the converter is typically a 16-bit depth RGB (three channel color) bitmap data set. The converted data set has very significantly been changed and has no direct relationship to the raw sensor data. In fact it is impossible to then convert or in anyway recreate the original raw data set using the RGB bitmap data. The conversion is a one way process.

Everything from that point is done with the bitmap and nothing else is done with the raw sensor data. The raw sensor data set that was read into memory is simply discarded, normally serially discarded with each new chunk that is read because the entire data set is never needed to be all there at once for a typical large RAW file.

Any bitmap that is exported to an image file format is done so with the intent that if the file is read back into memory a new bitmap that is identical to the original will be created in memory. With a "lossless" format it actually will be bit for bit identical. With a "lossy" format it will merely be close (very close for high quality and not so much.for lower quality).
Okay, this is all words without any concept of wha... (show quote)


Interesting and informative. Thanks!

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Mar 24, 2017 11:28:47   #
JayB Loc: Northeast US
 
burkphoto wrote:
Raw files CANNOT be edited. When you open one, the software does one of two things:

• It displays a thumbnail JPEG that was created by the camera and stuffed into the raw file

OR

• It displays a BITMAP converted from the raw data, using the EXIF data that was created by the camera based on menu settings (and stuffed into the JPEG preview).

DPP is great, because it takes the second approach. It shows you the same conversion the camera would have made (or made) for an in-camera saved JPEG. BUT, and here's the important part, you can edit it in DPP any way you like, and save a different kind of file, or send it to an external editor such as Photoshop for further editing. AND, even better, the conversion can be saved in 16-bit form, which preserves as much of the camera's 12- or 14-bit color depth as possible.

When you edit a raw file in DPP, you are working with the raw data, and the software is showing you an 8-bit or 10-bit conversion, depending upon your monitor's and graphic processor card's capabilities. There is no part of this process that refers to the original JPEG once the file is open fully. The original JPEG is a thumbnail used by operating systems (Windows Explorer and Mac Finder) to display a preview.

I haven't used DPP in a while, but on the versions I used, you had a menu selection to revert back to the in-camera default settings. As you work with raw files, you can only export them. You cannot "re-save" a raw file. When you leave DPP, the changes you made ARE STORED — but as sidecar data. They are thrown away if you revert to the in-camera default settings.

Most camera manufacturers' software works in a similar manner. Third party editors usually display raw files using their OWN set of default conversion parameters, although some will offer an option to use the "as shot" data.

While there is good reason to save redundant copies of files (as insurance against hard drive crash or storage media failure), You should always be able to revert to a view of the file as it would have looked as a JPEG, because the EXIF data is still unaltered and can be used for a new view of the file.
Raw files CANNOT be edited. When you open one, the... (show quote)


Excellent! Thanks!

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Mar 24, 2017 11:39:38   #
JayB Loc: Northeast US
 
mwsilvers wrote:
Not semantics at all but a correction​ of inaccurate and misleading statements. I knew exactly what you meant, but my point was that the raw files do get physically edited and updated which is an important distinction since so many people have stated categorically that they do not. And others have also used the sidecar term with regard to DPP which is inappropriate and misleading. The data is imbedded in the raw file and is not a sidecar, a term not used by Canon, and which implies a seperate file. I'm trying to prevent the confusion that this misinformation will cause. Many people will not read between the lines after reading this thread and will assume that (a) raw files cannot be edited and updated under any circumstances, and (b) that DPP uses sidecars to store edits. They will then pass these errors on to others, regardless of the fact that both premises are incorrect.

Sometimes we use shorthand terminology to express a concept which others in the know will understand even though the way its expressed may be strictly speaking inaccurate or incomplete. Using shorthand is fine when there is an even playing field, but when people without that specialized knowledge are added to the mix, confusion reigns.
Not semantics at all but a correction​ of inaccura... (show quote)


Thanks for pushing home this clarification.

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Mar 24, 2017 11:45:15   #
JayB Loc: Northeast US
 
Peterff wrote:
DPP has a reset function also. It also allows you to save multile modified .CR2 raw image files if you wish.

It's a pretty useful piece of software, not perfect, but neither is Adobe. They're all just tools....



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Mar 24, 2017 11:52:49   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
Peterff wrote:
DPP has a reset function also. It also allows you to save multile modified .CR2 raw image files if you wish.

It's a pretty useful piece of software, not perfect, but neither is Adobe. They're all just tools....




When I used Canons, I used DPP, Photoshop, and Lightroom. DPP was the go-to app for "problem files". It made the best color conversions from difficult scenes (bad exposure or extremely wide brightness range).

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Mar 24, 2017 13:36:21   #
mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey
 
aerides wrote:
This was my experience in DPP and caused my concern. It seemed as if I had permanently edited the display instructions carried with the original RAW file (whatever that's called). I did not know that the file could be restored in DPP at any point. In Lightroom, which I'm just beginning to experiment with, there is a Reset button, which I'm thinking does the same thing - i.e., starts you over gain with the "as shot" status of the file. (Now that the original post calmed down, I'm reading through the whole thing, making notes. Thanks all.)
This was my experience in DPP and caused my concer... (show quote)


There is major difference. In DPP, the edits are stored in the raw file itself, and those edits are only viewable/accessible in DPP. In Lightroom the edits are stored either in sidecar files or in the Lightoom catalog. Unlike DPP, the physical raw file is not modified.

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Mar 24, 2017 13:50:28   #
mwsilvers Loc: Central New Jersey
 
Peterff wrote:
DPP has a reset function also. It also allows you to save multile modified .CR2 raw image files if you wish.

It's a pretty useful piece of software, not perfect, but neither is Adobe. They're all just tools....


DPP 4.6 certainly doesn't have the breadth or depth of functionality that Lightroom has but, if you're​ a Canon shooter, in many respects it's quite competent as a raw exposure editor. It's certainly quicker and easier to use... and it's free.
If it had the ability to extract detail in deep shadow areas as well as Lightroom does, and the ability to modify local areas of an image, and just a few other features of Lightroom, it would be my go to raw editor 100% of the time. The Auto Gamma feature does a much better job overall than the auto feature in LR.

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Mar 24, 2017 13:56:02   #
Peterff Loc: O'er The Hills and Far Away, in Themyscira.
 
mwsilvers wrote:
DPP 4.6 certainly doesn't have the breadth or depth of functionality that Lightroom has but, if you're​ a Canon shooter, in many respects it's quite competent as a raw exposure editor. It's certainly quicker and easier to use... and it's free.
If it had the ability to extract detail in deep shadow areas as well as Lightroom does, and the ability to modify local areas of an image, and just a few other features of Lightroom, it would be my go to raw editor 100% of the time. The Auto Gamma feature does a much better job overall than the auto feature in LR.
DPP 4.6 certainly doesn't have the breadth or dept... (show quote)


Thank you. I agree. Different tools do different things.

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