marcomarks Loc: Ft. Myers, FL

Bracketing two stops would apparently also be affected by your cold quivering fingers because more than one shutter click would be required after doing some compensation dialing in manual mode. So I'd prefer the auto in-camera HDR that uses +1 and -1 for a bracketed set with one quick push of the shutter button even with a glove on - although I don't need gloves when it's usually 80 degrees or more year 'round in the daytime. It was really rough driving around with the windows open today... maybe I'll open the moon roof tomorrow too. :-P

SteveR Loc: Michigan

In manual, one way or another you've got to balance the amount of light that will hit the sensor. The meter will tell you how much light you need. You can actually achieve that amount of light through many combinations of speed, aperture, and ISO, giving you many different photographic results. It is the photographer who must make a selection from among these three variables to not only balance the incoming light but impact the resulting photograph.

BHC Loc: Strawberry Valley, JF, USA

I think my camera will shoot all three with one click if I change an option in the camera; that might be the HDR setting (lousy manual). And the last time I had a moon roof was when the top ripped off my '63 Mercury convertible.

blackest Loc: Ireland

I think arguing auto or manual is probably the wrong argument to be having. Because really its possible to get good and bad shots either way.

The important factor is control and understanding.

In the situation you gave above it wasn't the camera that made the choice to meter off the darker area it was you! Without your understanding of how the camera was going to meter the scene without your intervention it would be black ducks on a black pond.

Give yourself some credit here, your not the dummy , your camera is.

Clearly there is a difference between the guy who shoots in auto because he doesn't know and hopes the camera gets it right and the other fella who chooses auto knowing what the camera will do and what he wants is the same thing.

If someone wants to become a better photographer they need to understand what they are doing and what their camera is doing for them. The camera isn't the photographer and likely never will be.

Someone said earlier something like they shoot manual because they don't understand auto. That makes sense to me now.

marcomarks Loc: Ft. Myers, FL

:thumbup:

JohnFrim Loc: Somewhere in the Great White North.

Agreed… although every now and then I get the feeling that the camera is smarter than I am!!

Today's cameras are probably best described as mechanical imaging systems driven by a processor running imaging software (operated by the photographer, if we want to stick with the triangle concept). Computers are very good at executing code quickly, accurately, and repeatedly according the input they are given and the algorithms stored in their EPROMs. While the photographer doesn't need to be a programmer at that level, he does need to understand what the predictable output will be when given a certain input. That is what makes auto mode(s) usable and useful to the skilled operator.

I think it gets a bit more challenging to predict system response when using scene modes where the input is being compared to a database of images. But often the output is pretty darned good, and I dare say it is getting better.

marcomarks Loc: Ft. Myers, FL

I suppose this is kinda true.

It depends on the camera's ability too though. If I shoot with my Olympus its exposure point matrix seems to be center weighted even though there are several hundred exposure points it measures in the composition. But I'd have to understand the manual workings of a camera and understand spot metering and center weighted metering to know that. If I shoot with my Nikon 1 it has hundreds more exposure points it averages in it's matrix and the matrix spreads over 2/3 of the composition equally when it lights up in green to show me. But I'd also have to understand why that's better for achieving a "more correct" exposure of the ducks on the lake. And I now use in-camera HDR almost all the time outdoors and I have to know the details of what a bracketed set is to achieve the minor HDR dynamic range compression, because of having an understanding of doing it manually.

Okay... I'll begrudgingly go sit on the fence on this subject - except I still don't agree with shooting manually only and not taking advantage of the technology that is being laid in your lap that improves your output virtually every time except in those limited conditions we're discussing here. :roll:

marcomarks Loc: Ft. Myers, FL

As I've said elsewhere on UHH a couple times, I have a friend who takes his D5200 to the Naples Zoo butterfly gardens and shoots close ups of Monarchs and other unique species (a few frogs and lizards and such from time to time as well) with the 18-55 kit lens and comes up with absolutely stunning professional quality, very high resolution, amazing shots that would be very acceptable to nature magazines. For a couple years he didn't even have post editing software, finally bought PaintShop Pro and doesn't know how to use it other than he now can change the exposure of the whole photo up and down and that's about all he does with it. He said he tried sharpening but didn't like the result so he doesn't do that either.

After more than 40 years of SLRs and dSLRs, I don't think I could do better than he does with the best dSLR made today, the best lens glass for it, and any combination of manual settings I could find before the butterfly fell off the leaf in boredom. He uses his AUTO setting because he doesn't have a clue what any of the rest of it is about and quickly learned to trust the camera's built-in skills. He composes in a relaxed manner, moves forward and backward a little to get the depth of field to be what he wants after the camera has chosen an aperture and shutter speed, depends on the auto-focus and image stabilization to help him, and takes the shot. He moves around the butterfly to various angles and does a few more and moves on.

Full AUTO mode gives him relaxation, enjoyment, happiness with the results that he gets, pride of showing the photos on his iPhone to friends and business acquaintances statewide and being praised for excellent results, and printing some of them for his office walls. He achieves a lot of satisfaction from the database of artificial intelligence that his Nikon AUTO system provides to go along with his composition skills and that's what really counts.

He has no control issues where he wants to handle it all and take over from some dumb computer thingy so he can emphasize his own prowess and skills - so full AUTO is perfect for his needs.

BebuLamar

This is what I tried to explain but there are other think I am crazy. Manual is straight forward and easier to understand. You can get auto mode to do what you want but it's a bit trickier.

oldtigger Loc: Roanoke Virginia-USA

So many people think the auto modes are point and shoot simplicity.
In actuality they are a group of inter-related tools and some of those relationships can get rather tricky; especially if like me you have switched camera models 6 times in 2 years.

JohnFrim Loc: Somewhere in the Great White North.

Some think that by shooting AUTO-anything you are relinquishing control, but there is another perspective on this. Using the mantra "Knowledge is Power" you could say that by understanding what the camera is doing in AUTO you have power over the camera. With thoughtful use of AUTO modes you are, in fact, in control; you simply gave a secondary task to your assistant.

BebuLamar

Just a matter of definition and not saying what's good and what's bad. I would divide manual into 2 parts. Manual Exposure Controls and Manual Focusing.

Manual exposure controls to me mean one has to manually set the shutter speed, aperture and also ISO. One can use either the builtin meter, hand held meter or no meter to determine exposure and also chimping to me it's still manual.

Auto Focus is when one focus manually with the focusing ring. One can use the electronic in focus indicator, spit image, the plain ground glass or just the distance scale on the lens to focus.

By the way automatic film advance (like in a motorized film camera) is still consider manual in my opinion.

JohnFrim Loc: Somewhere in the Great White North.

The general consensus I have seen in this thread is that the AUTO vs MANUAL shooting modes debate really centers on exposure and does not include auto-focus. FULL MANUAL means the photographer is setting the 3 exposure parameter values manually regardless of how those values are obtained (internal meter, hand-held meter, look-up table, or an educated guess). Anytime the camera sets any 1 or 2 of the key exposure parameter values you are shooting SEMI-MANUAL or SEMI-AUTO; and if all 3 values are being set by the camera you are shooting FULL AUTO.

There has been a hint in this thread, and certainly heated debate in other threads, as to whether ISO should be included in "exposure" or "exposure mode". This has arisen because common usage of the term means "getting the right amount of light onto the sensor to create a good image file", which implicitly includes the ISO sensitivity value of the sensor. It may be splitting hairs, but the purists restrict exposure to mean "controlling the amount of light or number of photons hitting the sensor". Thus, in the strictest sense only aperture and shutter speed control exposure. For that reason I have tried to talk about "exposure parameters", which for me includes ISO and therefore can be represented by the "exposure triangle" (which I think should be called the "exposure parameter triangle" ).

But this is getting off topic. There are plenty of good resources dealing with Exposure Value (EV), including Wikipedia.

oldtigger Loc: Roanoke Virginia-USA

You have much the same problem deciding where to place white balance.

dickwilber Loc: Indiana (currently)

Let me repeat that: "THE IMPORTANT FACTOR IS CONTROL AND UNDERSTANDING!" If you knowingly use the tools, the mode, the settings, that give you the desired results, then you are making a photograph!