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As true as it gets!
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Apr 25, 2012 12:08:01   #
Roger Hicks Loc: Aquitaine
 
rpavich wrote:
The fact is...the biblical text is the most well attested ancient document we have 10X over.


Quite possibly, but on the other hand, there is still plenty of legitimate dispute, cf. Robin Lane Fox's 'The Unauthorized Version', which I'm sure you have read.

Cheers,

R.

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Apr 25, 2012 12:10:54   #
MWAC Loc: Somewhere East Of Crazy
 
Roger Hicks wrote:
Pepper wrote:
MWAC: Hey MWAC I respectfully disagree, I not only believe the USA is the best country in the world . . . there's no better country on the planet. There are some good ones as I'm sure Roger will jump in and proclaim the virtues of the French but my vote goes to the good old USA.


Yes, and a Frenchman's vote goes to France, an Englishman's vote goes to England...

How much experience do you have of living (for years at a time) in different countries? Above all, how are you defining 'best'?

Cheers,

R.
quote=Pepper MWAC: Hey MWAC I respectfully disagr... (show quote)


I actually think Sweden might be the best country in the word, I haven't lived there or visited, but what I do know of it.. I wouldn't mind living there.

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Apr 25, 2012 12:14:53   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
MWAC wrote:
Frank T wrote:
I'll never understand people who live in this Country and sing the Woe is me tune.. Put your nitpicking aside for a moment and realize that this is still the greatest country in the world. No, we're not perfect but, I'd rather be a lamppost in New York than the King of France.
America, where everyone, even the poor have food, shelter, televisions and refrigerators. America where the average worker can spend $4.00 for a Latte at Starbucks. America where even the housekeeper, butler or janitor still owns a car. America where a kid on welfare can grow up to be President. America, the one place in the world that people want to come to more than any other.
Instead of whining about 1950 being gone, why aren't we rejoicing for all we have?
God Bless America.
I'll never understand people who live in this Coun... (show quote)


OK I guess I am going to be the only one that points out how wrong this post is/was:

Quote:
still the greatest country in the world.
this is open for debate. I live in the US and it is NOT the greatest country in the world, one of but not the greatest.

Quote:
America, where everyone, even the poor have food, shelter, televisions and refrigerators.
ummm really? You think everyone in the US has shelter? Have you been downtown to any large city in the US, do you not see the homeless? Not all of them are homelss by choice. Refrigerators and Televisions? WHAT world do you live in? Where is this prefect America? I live in a small, small town and rest assured we have people in our community that do not have these luxury items. I know because I drive my butt to their homes to make sure they are getting at least getting something to eat once a week.

Quote:
America where the average worker can spend $4.00 for a Latte at Starbucks.
I really want to know where you live? I need to move there.
quote=Frank T I'll never understand people who li... (show quote)



Well...I live in West Virginia; the poorest state in the Union and we have a starbucks and I don't know anyone who's on welfare, unemployment, or otherwise that can't afford a Starbucks coffee let alone a half a dozen guns.

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Apr 25, 2012 12:17:19   #
silver Loc: Santa Monica Ca.
 
rpavich wrote:
mvyusmc wrote:
This a well-written example of sophistry in motion, telling lies in such a way as to mantle them in an aura of truth. It's the big lie and it's been going on since Aristotle codified the technique of using generalities to deceive. Another variant of this deception is 'proof-texting,' which is the way people pick and choose items from cherished documents, i.e. bibles, koran's, constitutions, to prove a point or create a rule. Often, proof-texters, choose only the ideas they want to enshrine while ignoring the rest, i.e. the Bible says "Call no man Father,' so Catholics are unbiblical because that's what they call their priests. The same person will call for the death penalty while ignoring the Commandment that says, "Thou shalt not kill."

With the power of the Internet at our disposal, it would be a simple matter for thinking people to check out Aristotle's "Rhetoric," and build a personal check list for isolating deceptive arguments. This would be a heck of an improvement for self-defense against the agents of deceit who make a hell of a lot of money selling lies over the radio and on television.
This a well-written example of sophistry in motion... (show quote)



Actually, your list would include those who haven't studied the bible in enough depth, in it's own cultural context to interpret it correctly and thereby make two statements that are untrue.
quote=mvyusmc This a well-written example of soph... (show quote)


I was wondering how long it would take before there would be comments about the bible. It doesnt take long does it?

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Apr 25, 2012 12:20:12   #
Roger Hicks Loc: Aquitaine
 
MWAC wrote:
I actually think Sweden might be the best country in the word, I haven't lived there or visited, but what I do know of it.. I wouldn't mind living there.


Can't say I fancy it myself -- too far north -- but I've never been there. I suppose the northerliness would worry a Canadian less!

Malta's a pretty amazing place, though. I lived there as a boy and see only change for the better since (though I wasn't there between 1960 and 1990).

Cheers,

R.

Reply
Apr 25, 2012 12:20:50   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
Roger Hicks wrote:
rpavich wrote:
The fact is...the biblical text is the most well attested ancient document we have 10X over.


Quite possibly, but on the other hand, there is still plenty of legitimate dispute, cf. Robin Lane Fox's 'The Unauthorized Version', which I'm sure you have read.

Cheers,

R.



Roger,
When I said "well attested" I was referring to the actual manuscripts themselves as ancient documents; I'm not interested in how modern people translate them into English, I was speaking about the extant manuscripts.

Reply
Apr 25, 2012 12:23:14   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
docrob wrote:
rpavich wrote:
Roger Hicks wrote:
rpavich wrote:
What he was referring to was an ancient document, written in a specific cultural context that had a specific meaning.

The trouble is, at many centuries' remove, we can't really be certain what that meaning was. There have been too many exegeses, often by the faithful with their own agendas, and, until comparatively recently, often a limited number of scruples about editing or even rewriting the sacred texts.

Cheers,

R.



Roger,
I agree that there have been many unscruplous people who do things based on their agenda, but in this case (the bible) we have MUCH textual data to study and so we aren't limited to "the telephone game" scenario.

The fact is...the biblical text is the most well attested ancient document we have 10X over.
quote=Roger Hicks quote=rpavich What he was refe... (show quote)


the bible and it's interpretations and meanings is the most contested book of its kind - here in the west - in the east that honor probably goes to the koran. Personally, Harry Potter trumps them all in terms of movie making potential
quote=rpavich quote=Roger Hicks quote=rpavich W... (show quote)


But I'm sure as a logical thinker you can see that just because someone disagrees on a book's meaning has no bearing on the truth or falsity of the information contained in that book nor does it relate to my comment about the richness of the manuscript tradition.

As was said...people are screwed up and will take any document and twist it to further their agenda...I don't care about that...I'm just commenting on the reliability of an ancient document.

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Apr 25, 2012 12:25:16   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
Roger Hicks wrote:

Yes, and a Frenchman's vote goes to France, an Englishman's vote goes to England...

How much experience do you have of living (for years at a time) in different countries? Above all, how are you defining 'best'?

Cheers,

R.


Funny you mention this Roger. I'm somewhat close to retirement and have just been investigating retiring somewhere outside the U.S.

I'll (hopefully) find out soon enough what it's like to live for years at a time in another country. :)

Reply
Apr 25, 2012 12:29:23   #
Roger Hicks Loc: Aquitaine
 
rpavich wrote:
When I said "well attested" I was referring to the actual manuscripts themselves as ancient documents; I'm not interested in how modern people translate them into English, I was speaking about the extant manuscripts.


Ah, my apologies for misunderstanding you. I don't know enough to argue about (for example) Buddhist texts, but you are very probably right.

Cheers,

R.

Reply
Apr 25, 2012 12:29:49   #
Roger Hicks Loc: Aquitaine
 
rpavich wrote:
Funny you mention this Roger. I'm somewhat close to retirement and have just been investigating retiring somewhere outside the U.S.

I'll (hopefully) find out soon enough what it's like to live for years at a time in another country. :)


Any ideas on where?

Cheers,

R.

Reply
Apr 25, 2012 12:31:08   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
Roger Hicks wrote:
rpavich wrote:
When I said "well attested" I was referring to the actual manuscripts themselves as ancient documents; I'm not interested in how modern people translate them into English, I was speaking about the extant manuscripts.


Ah, my apologies for misunderstanding you. I don't know enough to argue about (for example) Buddhist texts, but you are very probably right.

Cheers,

R.

No problem. As penance, please mail that Leica M9 to.....

Reply
 
 
Apr 25, 2012 12:33:17   #
rpavich Loc: West Virginia
 
Roger Hicks wrote:
rpavich wrote:
Funny you mention this Roger. I'm somewhat close to retirement and have just been investigating retiring somewhere outside the U.S.

I'll (hopefully) find out soon enough what it's like to live for years at a time in another country. :)


Any ideas on where?

Cheers,

R.


So far? Not a whole lot of ideas narrowed down...Cuenca, Ecuador is one but I've got several years to decide.

Reply
Apr 25, 2012 12:47:11   #
ngc1514 Loc: Atlanta, Ga., Lancaster, Oh. and Stuart, Fl.
 
rpavich wrote:
As was said...people are screwed up and will take any document and twist it to further their agenda...I don't care about that...I'm just commenting on the reliability of an ancient document.

Have you read Bart Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why? It's a fascinating look at the field of biblical textual criticism.

It has been a couple of years since I read it, but I seem to recall Ehrman citing the fact that there exist more textual DIFFERENCES in the early manuscripts than the number of words in the whole of the New Testament itself.

From the Introduction:

Quote:
In short, my study of the Greek New Testament, and my investigations into the manuscripts that contain it, led to a radical rethinking of my understanding of what the Bible is. This was a seismic change for me. Before this—starting with my born again experience in high school, through my fundamentalist days at Moody, and on through my evangelical days at Wheaton—my faith had been based completely on a certain view of the Bible as the fully inspired, inerrant word of God. Now I no longer saw the Bible that way. The Bible began to appear to me as a very human book. Just as human scribes had copied, and changed, the texts of scripture, so too had human authors originally written the texts of scripture. This was a human book from beginning to end. It was written by different human authors at different times and in different places to address different needs. Many of these authors no doubt felt they were inspired by God to say what they did, but they had their own perspectives, their own beliefs, their own views, their own needs, their own desires, their own understandings, their own theologies&#894; and these perspectives, beliefs, views, needs, desires, understandings, and theologies informed everything they said. In all these ways they differed from one another. Among other things, this meant that Mark did not say the same thing that Luke said because he didn't mean the same thing as Luke. John is different from Matthew—not the same. Paul is different from Acts. And James is different from Paul. Each author is a human author and needs to be read for what he (assuming they were all men) has to say, not assuming that what he says is the same, or conformable to, or consistent with what every other author has to say. The Bible, at the end of the day, is a very human book.
In short, my study of the Greek New Testament, and... (show quote)


Ah.. here it is:

Quote:
n addition to these Greek manuscripts, we know of about ten thousand manuscripts of the Latin Vulgate, not to mention the manuscripts of other versions, such as the Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Old Georgian, Church Slavonic, and the like (recall that Mill had access to only a few of the ancient versions, and these he knew only through their Latin translations). In addition, we have the writings of church fathers such as Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Athanasius among the Greeks and Tertullian, Jerome, and Augustine among the Latins—all of them quoting the texts of the New Testament in places, making it possible to reconstruct what their manuscripts (now lost, for the most part) must have looked like.

With this abundance of evidence, what can we say about the total number of variants known today? Scholars differ significantly in their estimates—some say there are 200,000 variants known, some say 300,000, some say 400,000 or more! We do not know for sure because, despite impressive developments in computer technology, no one has yet been able to count them all. Perhaps, as I indicated earlier, it is best simply to leave the matter in comparative terms. There are more variations among our manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament.
n addition to these Greek manuscripts, we know of ... (show quote)


How reliable can an ancient document be when the textual variances outnumber the words in the document itself?

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Apr 25, 2012 12:54:06   #
Jerry1940 Loc: Born in OH live in CA
 
Do not overrate what you have received, nor envy others. He who envies others does not obtain peace of mind.
Buddha quote: “Ah GREAT THINKING”


You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”
Tenth commandment: “Ah BIBLE BAD”
I don’t get it!

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Apr 25, 2012 12:57:33   #
Roger Hicks Loc: Aquitaine
 
Jerry1940 wrote:
Do not overrate what you have received, nor envy others. He who envies others does not obtain peace of mind.
Buddha quote: “Ah GREAT THINKING”


You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”
Tenth commandment: “Ah BIBLE BAD”
I don’t get it!


You don't get it? Nor do I. Who is picking on the Tenth Commandment as bad?

Cheers,

R.

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