wjones8637 Loc: Burleson, TX

While going through our Mom's belongings we found this brass item and need some help identifying it. I am sure it belonged to my grandfather Adolf Rudolf Havlik (a good Bohemian/Czech name). The upper part has a clip that could attach to clothing and the bottom has a loop were something else might have been attached. It has been suggested that this might be for a pocket watch, but I see no easy way to attach it. He was a member of the SPJST Lodge and I wonder if it is somehow related to it. i would appreciate any ideas and please excuse the less than great quality of he pictures.

Thanks,
Bill

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Violameister Loc: michigan

I think it is a watch fob. I googled "fancy watch fob of the 19th century image" and got a whole set of pictures, of which this is one:

I think there are similarities.

antique watchfob

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twowindsbear

I agree, I think it is a watch fob. The 'hook' would attach to the watch, and go into one vest pocket, the 'fob' would go into the other vest pocket, with maybe the chain threaded through a button hole to prevent loosing both of them.

IMHO, of course

dfran Loc: Dallas, Pa

Definitely a watch FOB, I have a few that are still attached to the pocket watches from my Great Grand Mother and Grandfather.

Ol' Frank Loc: Orlando,

I agree although the chain is a little short to go between the two vest pockets I think. Look at Graham Smith's avatar.

jiminee1 Loc: S.E.MA

This is definitely for a pocket watch. I worked for a company that used to make these and they come in a variety of styles and sizes. You state that there "is no easy way to attach the watch" but it in fact attaches to the end of the chain part. If this seems like the end of the link doesn't open it might be because it has a threaded lock down on the clasp (for safety) As for the length, it probably was made for his particular pocket/vest. It can easily be made longer or shorter by a jeweler. I have a few of the chains with that particular clasp. some of the chains were pretty fancy back in the day and mostly made of brass for it's strength. Be great if you had the watch to go with it. Makes a great family heirloom. I have three handed down w/chains (see attached). The mesh chain looks familiar. Does it have any markings on it like a manufactures trademark? There was a company in Plainville MA that developed the machines to make the chain ( Whiting and Davis Co.) back in the 40's.

SBW

Bill,
Your images are just fine and make it easy to identify this item. I know other posters have identified this as a watch fob. It may have doubled as a watch fob but I do not think that was it's main purpose. It appears to be a wax seal/stamp "keeper". One of your images includes the stamp with someone's initials on the stamp's handle. Probably the same initials are on the stamp itself. These were used by officials or other people of importance that had to affix their seal or stamp to documents or correspondence. If they used the seal stamp with some frequency then they usually had some device (like the one pictured) that allowed them to attach it to their clothing to keep it handy. They could also travel with it using a device like this. This particular one you pictured probably belonged to a Lady of some influence and importance. This one is probably an antique, but their are cultures in the world that still routinely use these.

The chain would have been used on the stamp/seal as well. The chain you have pictured if it were used for a watch (a bit short) it would have been used for a "ladies" watch. Those were smaller and typically worn on their clothing.

Really nice. I have attached photos of a couple other examples.

Wax Seal Fob


Wax Stamp Fob

FL Streetrodder

Bill,
Go to Google Images, click on the camera icon and upload one or more of your photos. You'll be amazed at what results such a search will produce. A very useful tool to have in your bag of tricks!

mslubner Loc: Redskin Ridge, Texas

I was also going to say a wax seal fob. I had a cheap one when I was a young girl and my grandfather had a lovely and intricate one. At one time, all letters, notes or messages were folded and sealed with wax to protect confidentiality and privacy. It was second nature to do so and the seal was kept on the person so they were always prepared.

Violameister Loc: michigan

The idea of a wax seal fob had not occurred to me, but the examples shown certainly do look like it. Only one question: the area I would expect the initials, or text to be looks perfectly smooth in all examples. why?

twowindsbear

Perhaps they had not been 'personalized' yet?

mslubner Loc: Redskin Ridge, Texas

Some where engraved with the initials or design and others were made blank and a personalized impression would be stamped on another piece of metal and fixed to the surface of the stamp. That way, the impression could be changed out at a later date if a design change was wanted.

SBW

You are correct. It is more common to find the antique wax seals blank rather than engraved. The primary reason being so that different seals could be affixed to the same stamp or holder. That is also the reason for the short chain or fob attached to the larger piece. The fob would be used to carry an extra or different seal or a container that contained multiple different seals. I have attached a picture with an example of that. These seals that could be changed out were almost always made of a fusible metal so that they could be easily attached or exchanged. A person using one of these wax seals for security or authentication (number 1 reason they were used) depending on their rank or status could have a dozen or more seals at their disposal to use. In other words, these seals were almost always portable or adaptable.

It is interesting that in one of the photographs there are engraved initials on the handle of one of the seals. These initials could be of a person on some type of official office or government department, yet the seal itself appears to be blank or have no seal attached.

Finally there is one other very important reason you will find these seals blank or without engraving. If the person that used the seal or stamp had high status or was important enough then when they died their seal or the seal they used was publicly destroyed so that it could no longer be used. This destruction of the seal often took place at the funeral or memorial services. This is still done in some cultures even today, mostly Asian or far eastern cultures.

Probably more than you wanted to know. See the photo below for an example of the multiple seals I mentioned, some with the fob attachment or ring to attach to the fob.

SBW

Good catch. See my posting to mslubner.

rbmcgarvey Loc: Philly, PA

Possibly a ladies watch fob. Doesn't need to reach between vest pockets.