Delderby Loc: Derby UK

We have a similar problem in UK - problem for us is not open borders but thick politicians who cannot see past their noses - welcoming all and sundry to free benefits which even our own poor cannot get.

Delderby Loc: Derby UK

But it would not have been much later. The allies were already heading for Germany via Italy, with battle hardened troops from North Africa. Hitler was finished the moment his Luftwaffe was decimated in the Battle of Britain.

boberic Loc: Quiet Corner, Connecticut. Ex long Islander

The simple truth is that without the US germanynwould have invaded England. England just might have lost the war. Without the Lend Lease program England would not have had the equipment To continue the fight against Germany. England did not have the Manpower or the production facilaties t sustain a protracted land war. Without the US western Europe would still be speaking German.

Architect1776 Loc: In my mind

I applaud England for not folding like a house of cards like France. In their darkest hour it was Germany against England. The Soviets were still allied with Germany. The RAF did marvels at discouraging the Luftwaffe and lasted just long enough to win the battle of Britain. We do not denegrate the sacrifices made by all parties to this world war. But the question was who and that can only be the USA because they supplied the Brits, Soviets and other allies with the means to continue the fight. As an infantry soldier I know I can not carry the fight very far without a good supply from the rear. Beans and bullets do run out. Again all made great effort and sacrifices and all were valuable but all would have been for nothing had not the USA provided supplies from the very beginning before formally entering the shooting portion of the war. The USA provided convoy escort services at the loss of a ship before entering the war. The Flying tigers learned a great deal about how to fight the Japs as a volunteer group and provided valuable training. There were many moving parts but ultimately it was the power of production of the USA that allowed the victory and bought time for the Soviets to regroup, and rearm and move factories etc. England was needed as a bombing base and a staging point for the invasion. Had they signed an armistice with Germany that would have not been possible. Again there is a lot but it all comes down the the industrial might of the USA and it being isolated by 2 oceans that allowed it to produce. P.S. Mexico was on Germany's side in both wars.

EdU239 Loc: The Northeast

The trouble is changing only part of the equation. No invasion of Russia? Stalin is a neutral and anxious not to irritate the Germans. The German economy is enormously stronger since they have all of Central and Western Europe except GB (but who knows?) plus a cooperative trading partner. There's a reasonably good chance that the Brits vote Churchill out of office and make a deal to keep their empire. If you assume instead that Germany beats Russia in 1941, then the set up isn't all that much different, but I think it would be even more likely that Britain would make peace on the basis of you keep Europe and we'll keep the empire. The Japanese might decide to initiate a war in the Pacific, but they might not. Would the US have continued rearming? How about investing $2 billion in the Manhattan Project? Another government boondoggle.

Or it all could have gone in completely different directions--we have no way to tell. It would be a very different world as of December 1940 when Hitler makes the firm decision NOT to invade Russia, or December 11, 1941, when he decides NOT to declare war on the US, or as of.....

boberic Loc: Quiet Corner, Connecticut. Ex long Islander

So in your view the US is not exceptional. Here are just a few reasons why we are. The US invented A free, civil society. Prior to the US EVERY country was headed by a monarchy(even the "Indian tribes were under the rule of the chief"} This concept of elected leaders was unknown prior to the US. Free speech, freedom of religion, a free press, Independent courts, Were unknown prior to the US. Property ownership, wasa new concept, just a few exceptional concepts. If you or any one else doesn't like it here you are free to leave and try to find a more exceptional country. (In some "exceptional" countries} citizens are excecuted if they return once they have tried ti leve.

EdU239 Loc: The Northeast

There's so much factually wrong with this that it's impossible to know where to start. None of those ideas was born with the US and the idea of republican (non-monarchical) government goes back to.... hmm, the Dutch Republic? the Swiss Confederation? the Italian city states? the Roman Republic? The Greek city-states?

Acknowledging history is not the same thing as denigrating the United States. Amusingly enough, you're demonstrating the kind of thinking you find in fascist and communist dictatorships.

Architect1776 Loc: In my mind

No nation prior to the USA actually combined all these principles and concepts into one constitution and set of laws to live under. I believe that was the point trying to be made. And I do challenge you to show where in Greece, Rome, Italian city states, the Dutch republic or English law where all these concepts have come together in one nation. I believe I mentioned that the founders were well read and knew of these forms of government. They took those concepts and formed a unique government with power to the people and a freedom before unknown. The first 2 amendments are prime examples of what these other societies were lacking. The other 8 also were items they saw as lacking elsewhere.

Delderby Loc: Derby UK

Sorry but I disagree - that was the German plan until Britain destroyed their Luftwaffe - which is why Crazy Adolph started to look elsewhere at other fronts to maintain his credibility. He knew that without air cover he could not cross the channel. At the end of the day he was shit scared of the Brits. And so he should have been. That was the only thing he got right.

Robin Poole Loc: Missoula, Mt

Boberic
I'm not arguing with your thoughts on Our supplying of war materials JUst a good place to put my thoughts on the Battle of Brittan Thanks... Hitler and the German General Staff realized that in order to successfully invade GB the RAF fighters would have to be put out of operation. If an invading country doesn't have air superiority a successful invasion won't happen During August the Luftwaffe concentrated on bombing fighter bases and shooting down RaF fighters . Up until the 1st week of sept the Krauts were winning the Battle of Brittan. RAF Pilots were being switched from bomber command to fighter command. RAF fighter pilots were physically and mentally exhausted from flying so many missions. It's one thing to fly a bomber another to learn tactics well enough to take on an experienced German fighter pilot.. After the beginning of Sept the Luftwaffe began the bombing of British Cities instead of Air Fields. This gave RAF fighter command time to "catch its breath" When it comes to German Bomber losses vs Brit fighter losses, the Brits creamed them. One of the reasons was that the German bombers carried very few machine guns compared to the Hurricanes and Spitfire. When it came to fighters, the Brits also won but more like 400 to 300. I don't have the exact figures, but it was pretty close compared to bomber losses.
Hitler also ruined the Luftwaffe by trying to make the ME262 a bomber instead of a fighter. It took over a year of arguing before the ME262 fighter was put into production.

Architect1776 Loc: In my mind

The English got smart and sent a bomber raid to Germany and that distracted Hitler to the bombing of English cities rather than the RAF. That is why the change.
We also have not taken into consideration the U Boat factor starving the island. Again only the USA could make more ships faster than the U Boats could sink them. Then the British sonar did help and Radar with the British magnetron invention allowed it to be easily placed on ships and planes.

Robin Poole Loc: Missoula, Mt

From what I read the British city bombing was more of an accident than a planned raid The pilot got lost trying to find a Luftwaffe base and had to unload his load to get back to the UK. Whether deliberate or accidental, that incident changed the out come.

EdU239 Loc: The Northeast

Actually the posting I quoted doesn't include the qualifications you're making. I'll grant for the sake of argument that the combination was new, although I don't think the first and second amendments reflected what was lacking elsewhere, just things that hadn't been specified in the original constitution.

I'd also observe the great irony (one word for it) that the free country thus formed had a significant slave population underpinning much of the economy. (If I remember correctly, slaves were quite happy to escape to the British lines during the Revolution, and Washington was PO'd that the Brits wouldn't return the slave owners' "property" when they left.) This doesn't negate the ideals expressed in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution (although I think the 3/5ths clause is a stain), but I do think it's rather difficult to claim that special innocence and virtue expressed by claims of "American Exceptionalism".

To get back a little closer to the original topic, we fight our wars because of our perceived self-interest. This is as it should be, but we shouldn't pretend that our motives are selfless.

Architect1776 Loc: In my mind

Same old slave crap. Read about the slave issue at the time, read Jefferson's and Adam's letters among other founders and the debates. You have a huge lack of understanding of the history of the founding. you seem to be a product of the hate America first mentality permeating the academic world. I got my degrees later in life after serving this nation. But I read many books on the founding, the signers biographies, the federalist papers and many other writings in those years. I am not an educated historian or have credentials but I can think and see and understand the concepts presented.

Delderby Loc: Derby UK

How can one man own another? And what has that issue to do with WW11? As a Brit I shall be ever grateful for the contribution to victory made by the descendants of American "Slaves"