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Raw Files Bigger Than Expected
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Mar 11, 2015 12:06:04   #
rjriggins11 Loc: Colorado Springs, CO
 
Actually, RAW format does render a pixel by pixel rendering. It also records a correlation of each pixel to each other and does it in a binary format.

R.G. wrote:
I think the point Michael has been trying to make is that the generation of a RAW file does not involve a pixel-for-pixel rendering of the sensor data.

I also suspect that the OP was assuming that since RAW is a lossless format, the generation of a RAW file would result in a file size that reflected the quality (i.e. resolution) provided by the sensor. He was therefore expecting the MB and MP values to be close to each other, and was wondering where the extra 5MB had come from. However, that line of reasoning (which I would have accepted myself not so long ago) doesn't allow for the processing involved in generating a RAW file, or the fact that the RAW data is 12 or 14 bit, whereas each byte of data in a file is 8 bits.

But the fact remains that typically a RAW file will have a MB value that is slightly more than the MP count of the sensor. As BebuLamar pointed out, 25MB from a 12MP sensor is quite a departure from that norm. I suspect the reasons for that are too technical for a forum such as this.
I think the point Michael has been trying to make ... (show quote)

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Mar 11, 2015 12:31:54   #
R.G. Loc: Scotland
 
rjriggins11 wrote:
Actually, RAW format does render a pixel by pixel rendering. It also records a correlation of each pixel to each other and does it in a binary format.


I don't know who to believe, because I've seen others state that the pixels in a RAW-derived image don't have a direct equivalent on the sensor - and that applies to their position as well as to their colour/luminosity values.

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Mar 11, 2015 12:41:35   #
SonnyE Loc: Communist California, USA
 
zincgt wrote:
ok if I interject for one question? I've also noticed with my
60D Canon the RAW files can vary from 23-27 mb file size. Is it the amount of bright information or dark information that raises the file size, other than a better term?


Back in the Dawn of Digital camera's for general public consumption...
It was quite apparent that red was a file size culprit. Any file with a lot of red in it was noticeably larger.
Flash forward to today...
Today, one picture can hold more information than some of the early cameras could hold in their entire memory. (40-50 small jpg's and you had to find a terminal to empty the camera. Life wasn't pretty.) Casio Pocket Camera, 1 MP, 640x480 pixel images. Yes, crude.
Things have improved a bit.

Every thing got physically smaller, but files have grown exponentially. And just like the computer industry, bigger, faster, and larger numbers, are all used to drag out the wallets and cards of hungry tech savvy :hunf: :?: public.

Is the file... what? Who cares? It is what it is.
You are light years away from 20 years ago. And 20 years from now Pictures will likely be taken with thought and downloaded with hat full of sensors on your head.

Try and not over-think things. ;)

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Mar 11, 2015 13:17:03   #
oldtigger Loc: Roanoke Virginia-USA
 
R.G. wrote:
I don't know who to believe, because I've seen others state that the pixels in a RAW-derived image don't have a direct equivalent on the sensor - and that applies to their position as well as to their colour/luminosity values.


the sensor data is compressed, expanded, dithered and diddled long before it gets modified and stored as a raw file.
Straight sensor data just isn't pretty enough from an engineering standpoint to be stored without first processing it.

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Mar 11, 2015 13:23:01   #
R.G. Loc: Scotland
 
oldtigger wrote:
the sensor data is compressed, expanded, dithered and diddled long before it gets modified and stored as a raw file.....


I've heard of dithering as a technique - diddling must be something new that I haven't heard of yet :-D .

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Mar 11, 2015 13:42:31   #
drucker Loc: Oregon
 
As mentioned in several comments, the camera sensor density isn't a 1:1 ratio to the output file because several variables come into play. At the most simple level each sensor would only record black or white and each sensor could be recorded by one bit (0 or 1 [off/on] in computer terms). But we aren't satisfied with that we want shades of grey 8-16-32-64-128-etc.
Here we encounter how the computer stores information -- each byte is composed of 8 bits and 256 levels can be described per byte. But we are not satisfied with that – we want color, and that usually means three (RGB) and the full raw file size in bytes just tripled the number of cells on your camera sensor plus the file header that stores information about the photo.
Physically handling this huge amount of information is possible but we are impatient creatures and want it done instantly. Thus, camera makers use various systems to compress the file without losing any information. For example if a string eight sensors report the same color value then the file can say "repeat this value eight times" using fewer bytes than repeating the complete information eight times. Multiply this many thousands of time in a file and the space savings can be significant. All of the information is still there, but it just takes up less space and is faster to process but is still a lossless format.
This is in contrast to JPEG files where adjacent pixels are analyzed based on the quality level chosen and are permanently changed to an average color that can then be stored in a more compact form making the final file size much smaller.
The debate will go on about which system to use and sensors will continue to increase in density but it all boils down to what level of quality is actually necessary for the final use rather than fostering what in many cases is just bragging rights.

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Mar 11, 2015 13:53:24   #
jeep_daddy Loc: Prescott AZ
 
WayneW wrote:
I just started using raw files (after years of jpegs). My Nikon D200 bodies are rated at 10.2 megapixels but I end up with files that are over 15. What's up?


Megapixels and megabytes are different. Megapixels are the number of pixels an image has across and down, while megabytes is the size of the file according to how much data is in the file which is affected by the type of file, (raw/jpg), bit-depth (8-bit, 16-bit, 24-bit etc), and so on.

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Mar 11, 2015 16:14:29   #
speters Loc: Grangeville/Idaho
 
WayneW wrote:
I just started using raw files (after years of jpegs). My Nikon D200 bodies are rated at 10.2 megapixels but I end up with files that are over 15. What's up?

You probably end up with files over 15mb and not 15mp!

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Mar 11, 2015 16:50:51   #
Kuzano
 
Quality of focus also affects file byte size....

If you mount your camera to a tripod and set manual functions, aperture, shutter, ISO all to the same settings and set the focal distance point to be identical and shoot four shots of the same subject (NO CHANGE) at the settings chosen, you can get four different file storage sizes, whether Jpeg or RAW. This is also true on my DSLR that saves TIFF.

Change the focus for each shot, manually.. For the test do not use AF.

The image that will be the smallest byte size will be the image in best focus.

Taking one image in focus and purposely defocusing the other three will add bytes to the out of focus images. The image in best focus will always be the smallest file byte size.

I discovered this some years ago and often use the smallest file size as the best predictor of best focus.

Naturally, to make this a controlled test, testing relies on keeping the settings, subject content and exposure the same.

There is much confusion, and rightfully so, until the factors that control pixel count, pixel size, byte size and other components that control size are fully understood.

Some need to be understood and others are simply "mental masturbation"

Perhaps like file size related to accuracy of focus. Who Knows?

BY THE WAY my camera that writes jpeg, RAW and TIFF, creates TIFF as the largest byte size file... by a large margin over RAW. It's an Olympus DSLR. I have also used FUJIFILM DSLRS that create all three formats and TIFF is always considerably larger than RAW.

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Mar 11, 2015 16:53:03   #
steffro1 Loc: Murrells Inlet, SC
 
You got that right, my D800 produces 44-47 MB per image!
wolfman wrote:
25 is nothing, mine are 45-50mb.

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Mar 11, 2015 16:58:15   #
Kuzano
 
What size file is created by "50 shades of Grey". Furthermore, do we really give a big rat's A__!!

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Mar 11, 2015 17:00:54   #
Architect1776 Loc: In my mind
 
WayneW wrote:
I just started using raw files (after years of jpegs). My Nikon D200 bodies are rated at 10.2 megapixels but I end up with files that are over 15. What's up?


Many good answers. Different subjects have different size files.

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Mar 11, 2015 17:04:04   #
drucker Loc: Oregon
 
I thought about that when I mentioned "shades of grey" in my post, but decided not to go there — it takes too many megabytes!

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Mar 11, 2015 17:07:39   #
Armadillo Loc: Ventura, CA
 
Kuzano wrote:
What size file is created by "50 shades of Grey". Furthermore, do we really give a big rat's A__!!


No! But, a tiny Rat might make a difference.

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Mar 11, 2015 19:00:24   #
Trabor
 
oldtigger wrote:
The image file has to describe the color and illumination for each of those cells on your 12mpx sensor.
Instead of wondering why the file is 25mb you should be amazed it isn't 250mb.


:thumbup:

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