berchman Loc: South Central PA

This heated discussion has motivated me to look into the issue a bit. I came to it with no preconceived notions except that I had read Vicki Hearne, Yale professor, dog trainer and dispeller of supposed myths about pit bulls and been persuaded by her to view pit bulls (or what passes for them) as good dogs, so long as they were raised and trained properly.

However, notwithstanding the genetic diversity cited by CatMarley, it appears to be the case that dogs bred for fighting whether they be Fila Brasileiros, Presa Canarios, Dogo Argentinos, or Stafforshire Terriers all share certain characteristics which make their bite and attack far more dangerous than that of breeds not bred for fighting. I find it hard to get out of my head the attack on the lacrosse coach Diane Whipple killed by two Presa Canarios in the hallway of her building in San Francisco. The lawyer owners of the dogs were imprisoned for manslaughter.

Whether or not the horrific reports of people being horribly mauled and killed by these various breeds and mixtures of fighting dogs justifies their being banned or not is for the reader of this thread to decide. I ride a low slung recumbent trike and I would never ride past any yard inhabited by a fighting breed unless I had a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with 00 buck in my lap. And this from an owner of two lovable German Shepherds who regularly watches a relative's Rottweiler, another sweetie.

CatMarley Loc: North Carolina

Exactly, especially when "Pit Bull" is not even a breed but a general description of a type of dog. (I have been breeding, training and showing dogs for 40 years.) There are lots of real breeds of dogs who are a lot scarier (and are supposed to be) than what is usually considered a Pit Bull. Google "Fila Brasilero".

CatMarley Loc: North Carolina

Any large animal with teeth is dangerous if not under the control of a responsible and able owner or trainer. Guard breeds, specifically bred to guard property and other animals have to be controlled. This would go beyond the breeds you mentioned to include the Kangal and all the Central Asian livestock guardians and such breeds as the Bouvier and Briard: all big working dogs who are suspicious of strangers and possesive of their territory.

Even the smaller herders can be formidable. I was on the Navajo reservation, when we spotted a herd of sheep with a very beautiful ram, which we got out to photograph. Instantly we were greeted by two small snarling dogs who positioned themselves between us and the ram and told us in no uncertain terms to get back in the car and get lost! Out on the range these dogs are doing their job. But when dogs are in contact with people they have to be under the control of their caretakers. And the people coming in contact with dogs have to be under control as well and respect the animal's space. Dogs are not people. they are carnivores with teeth who do not think the way we do. Those of us who work with dogs know that and respect them.

Wellhiem Loc: Sunny England.

In my experience, I look after dogs whilst their owners are indisposed. They may be in hospital or in prison, I don't judge. Given a proper diet and sufficient exercise, there is no such thing as a "bad dog". You also have to give them strict rules. If you play with them aggressively as puppies, (up to about 18 months), you are making a big mistake. After thet age they know the boundaries.I'm often called upon to take care of "problem dogs", but if they learnt it at an early age, I have limited success.

CatMarley Loc: North Carolina

I would add to that, if you don't train a dog it will train you. This often happens with little dogs, whose owners spoil them and don't recognize that these creatures are not just fluffy toys, they are every bit the carnivorous predator as a wolf. It begins with thinking the puppy is cute when it guards a toy or food. The "cute " growl becomes a snap and then a bite, and soon there is a little tyrant calling all the shots. Big dog owners usually know they have to train their pet, but little dog owners often end up with a nasty tempered little tyrant. Most of the Chihuahuas I know would be far more dangerous than Pit Bulls if they weighed 100 lbs!

bluescreek Loc: N.C. Sandhills

Makes plenty o' sense, seen it

Delderby Loc: Derby UK

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Once a breed is established - as, e.g., "Pit Bull", genetic characteristics will be passed down from generation to generation, plus (unfortunately) some "surprise" characteristics - thrown up from time to time, which in the case of Pit Bulls has caused the problem. No doubt you have heard of thoroughbreds and quarterhorses - bred for speed and stamina. Those characteristics also pass down. But Pit Bulls were bred to be vicious and fighters. Those characteristics will remain in-bred. Forever!

Wellhiem Loc: Sunny England.

I think it's well meaning but missguided relatives who buy a small dog for their elderly relatives, in the belief that they are easy to controll, (the small dogs not the elderly relatives), and will be good company for them. I have always found larger dogs easier to handle, (both than smaller dogs and elderly relatives). It aways infuriates me when I see an old lady saying to a small dog "oh please don't do that". They clearly have no idea, (both the old lady and the dog).

CatMarley Loc: North Carolina

You obviouslu do not know anything about breeding dogs or canine genetics. I do. I am a recognized expert, and AKC Breeder of Merit with 42 years experience breeding dogs and I also hold degrees in Zoology and Genetics.

First off, there is no such pure breed as a pit bull. The dogs usually labelled as pitbulls are mongrels - mixtures of various large strong dogs, that may have 6 or more different purebred dogs in their pedigrees. Secondly, the breeds that may constitute an individual pitbull are bred for all kinds of different jobs, herding, draft, livestock guardian, combat, police, etc. NONE are bred to be viscious. Even dogs bred for controlling livestock or for bull-baiting, like the bulldog, or for vermin control, like the Jack Russell, are bred to be responsive to their handlers. No dog is ever bred to be viscious - how could it's handler control it? The dogs that make good guardians, working dogs or fighters are bred for courage, strength, and drive, but loyalty and protectiveness toward their human family. Fighting dogs are TRAINED to fight.

Most serious dig injuries are caused by male dogs. Male canines, particularly in breeds bred for individual, rather than pack work, are often aggressive toward other male dogs. In these breeds the females are also predisposed to not get along with other females. This natural predisposition is encouraged by the human vermin who engage in dog fighting, by various abusive techniques.

I breed a breed whose Standard reads "Gay and ASSERTIVE and CHARY OF STRANGERS". Their purpose, in their native country was as an indoor guardian and watchdog. In the breed you can find individuals in which these characteristics make them aggressive in protection of their and their owner's property. Try to touch one of these or something they are guarding, and you can lose a finger. On the other hand, some of these never met a stranger they didn't love, and would never bite even if abused. Each dog is an individual, just like people, and although a breed is bred for a certain predisposition, there is a VERY wide variation among individuals.

In Russia, an experiment was done with foxes to try to breed two different temperaments. Friendly captive foxes were bred only to friendly foxes, and the wild, unfriendly ones only to the unfriendly ones. After about 12 generations. they DID ahve two different groups - wild ones who did not like people and would bite, and friendly ones who wanted to kick people and loved to be handled. But even in these groups individuals were found to vary considerably. Anyone wanting to read about the temperament experiment (which took 50 years) can do so at: http://scienceblogs.com/thoughtfulanimal/2010/06/14/monday-pets-the-russian-fox-st/

Delderby Loc: Derby UK

I have lived my life with a philosophy which can be summed up as "beware the experts" That philosophy has not let me down. Experts are almost always tunnel visioned. They certainly lack empathetical capability. Their theses are not usually based on the practical. Therefore if you had said that you were not an expert your dissertation may have carried more weight. I believe Pit Bull to be a breed to all intent and purpose. Most would agree with me. So far as breeding dogs goes - when did you breed a pit bull?

CatMarley Loc: North Carolina

I have never bred a Pit bull. I would not know where to start because they are all mixed breeds - mongrels if you will. I have only bred purebred AKC breeds. I am amused by your attitude toward people with experience known otherwise as "experts". I hope that when you need brain surgery, your local car mechanic does a good job for you! LOL. Good luck with that!

In any case, even though you have decided not to accept any information from someone with expertise in the raising and training of dogs, perhaps others will find that information useful or at least interesting, so that my 40 years of experience shall not have been entirely wasted.

khh Loc: brooksville,fl.

the dogs temperament is the first to be considered when choice of sirs and dam for breeding of dogs of any working breed.If this is not considered first the temperament needed in a working dog will be lost in one generation, very difficult to restore.I am not talking from text book experience but from the breeding of working Dobermann for over 25 yrs. I trained two of my sires to schh111 titles working them in about 32 trials for proof of there temperament.My over all experience with dogs is with herding,ob,police k9 and other working test.
I have never been experience to the BS I have read on this site(by miss take I started) you madam have been a breath of fresh air on most of your post,the rest I will match what I have done with the k9 on what ever subject of training they choice. And as to the pit bull bring it on am tired of negative from people that obviously know little if nothing about the breed except from the news media.have amerry chrismass and a happy new year

Delderby Loc: Derby UK

Not mongrels if I will - that's your vocabulary not mine.
There are many self-recognised experts covering most fields of endevour, Doctor.
Brain surgeons are rarely self-proclaimed experts. Neither are good auto technicians.

ArcticPug Loc: Cape Cod, Massachusetts

The best part of you trying to be sarcastic is that what you've just said is correct.

P.S. Thank you ... National Geographic (and Focus On Rescue)
http://focusonrescue.com/2014/06/04/pit-bull-how-well-do-you-know-the-breed/

CatMarley Loc: North Carolina

False modesty is just as untruthful as is hubris. If I am "self proclaimed" then the American Lhasa Apso club agrees, since I was selected to judge the futurity at the annual National show this past October in St Louis. The 20 odd owners of my dogs in Western Europe, Australia, India and Russia, who are winning awards also seem to agree, as do the many other breed publications who request permission to reprint my articles in their journals. I earned my reputation by 40 years of devotion to my breed and my craft.