Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main Photography Discussion
JPG Quality Degradation
Page <<first <prev 3 of 6 next> last>>
Jul 26, 2014 08:58:43   #
naturepics43 Loc: Hocking Co. Ohio - USA
 
redhogbill wrote:
I moved them a couple times! and I would say yes they did!! {shrink on there own} I have no other explanation for it, hoping someone could shed some light. i have the same computer from 1999 and loaded the photos in them!!!
not just A photo, but FILES of photos!!!!
maybe when I run a defrag and a compression?
{ I have to hand crank it every day to start it!!!!}


I think you answered your own question. Each time you defrag your hard drive & compress the files, you are loosing info from each photo file.
If you did an external back-up of the photo files (CD or flash drive or external HD) the files will be OK!

Reply
Jul 26, 2014 09:34:41   #
CatMarley Loc: North Carolina
 
gemlenz wrote:
I know they say each time you modify a JPG image it looses quality. My question is if you make the mods in LR and export a new file is there any loss? My guess is there is not.

You always lose something. Shoot in raw and JPg. Download the raw to a portable usb harddrive in folders by date. Do anything you like to the jpgs, but you always have your raw originals. Little terabyte sized drives are dirt cheap and smaller than a pack of cigarettes. You can pack a lifetime of them in a shoebox.

Reply
Jul 26, 2014 09:48:11   #
bjprovo Loc: Northeast CT
 
I don't know anything about the program, and sadly didn't save the emails, but I recently received some offer from Avanquest software about their ability to repixelate(?) pictures. Might be worth looking at if you have no other options.I reiterate I know nothing about the company or the program but might be worth a look.
redhogbill wrote:
I moved them a couple times! and I would say yes they did!! {shrink on there own} I have no other explanation for it, hoping someone could shed some light. i have the same computer from 1999 and loaded the photos in them!!!
not just A photo, but FILES of photos!!!!
maybe when I run a defrag and a compression?
{ I have to hand crank it every day to start it!!!!}

Reply
 
 
Jul 26, 2014 09:50:43   #
Apaflo Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
 
naturepics43 wrote:
I think you answered your own question. Each time you defrag your hard drive & compress the files, you are loosing info from each photo file.
If you did an external back-up of the photo files (CD or flash drive or external HD) the files will be OK!

That just is not true. Defragging and file system data compression do not affect the data in the file by even one bit.

What causes JPEG degradation is conversion of the image data from the JPEG format to a straight RGB data set, and then doing block resampling (a lossy image compression technique used only by the JPEG generator, not by a defrag program or by any generic file compression program) and writing the image back to disk. What is written to disk is not what was read from the disk.

Reply
Jul 26, 2014 09:52:09   #
singleviking Loc: Lake Sebu Eco Park, Philippines
 
redhogbill wrote:
I moved them a couple times! and I would say yes they did!! {shrink on there own} I have no other explanation for it, hoping someone could shed some light. i have the same computer from 1999 and loaded the photos in them!!!
not just A photo, but FILES of photos!!!!
maybe when I run a defrag and a compression?
{ I have to hand crank it every day to start it!!!!}


Your GROSS HDD compression program is what did the file truncation of your photo files. To avoid this in the future, DO NOT COMPRESS PHOTO FILES WITH HDD COMPRESSION PROGRAMS. Store your files on an external drive so they can be reviewed without compression. Live and learn from your mistakes.

Reply
Jul 26, 2014 10:01:28   #
tomw
 
Bill Houghton wrote:
Rongnongno, is 100 percent correct. I work mostly with JPEG, and will tell you, They are downgraded right out of the camera. To what degree is the question. I know there changed from 16 bit to 8 bit if that means anything. I will go onto say that in general you will not see the loss visually for at least like the first 10 saves of the same file. Take a JPEG, open it than save it. Photo1.1 then save it again as Photo1.2. Open it and save it as Photo1.3. Open it again and again. It will considerable closing to see any change. If you blow it up these changes will appear somewhat faster. I would recommend that if you are going to be working on a photo for any period of opening and closing that you SAVE as a DNG, TIF or whatever native format that chose that doesn't use compression. This will maintain the photo quality till the end. Or try to refrain from saving the original.
Rongnongno, is 100 percent correct. I work mostly... (show quote)


If you make any edits between saves you will see the degradation a lot sooner. Sad experience, the loss of irreplaceable images, has taught me to always take a RAW image and convert to jpg, if at all, only for the final product.

Reply
Jul 26, 2014 10:13:10   #
Rickyb
 
What about files from the original cf or sd? I have not really done any comparison. Anyone have gone back to originals and compared?

Reply
 
 
Jul 26, 2014 10:16:06   #
Apaflo Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
 
dcampbell52 wrote:
defrag doesn't just sit on the drive, the file is opened and combined into another spot on the drive. In defrag, as I am sure you understand being a computer engineer (this is what my electrical engineering degree is in) the drive has written bits of the software to various open spots across the drive and not necessarily in sequence. Defrag moves all of the bits and pieces to an open space creating a large open space at the beginning of the drive then moves the data again in order to fill the drive consecutively. This is at least 2 opens and saves usually more.
defrag doesn't just sit on the drive, the file is ... (show quote)

Defrag moves the data byte by byte, and does not change any of it. Hence there is no degradation to a JPEG image at all.

It does not "open" the file in the sense that an editor does, because all it does is read sequential bytes and write them sequentially. A JPEG file encodes RGB data, and an editor decodes that data back to a new RGB data set. If the "quality" parameter is anything other than 100% the data has been resampled in blocks rather than the original bytes, and the decoded RGB data is not the same as the original. If the decoded RGB data is changed in the editor and written to disk it will again be encoded, and again will not be the same as the original. That is what causes the degradation.

Neither a defrag program nor an antivirus program will degrade a JPEG image because neither of them will change the way the RGB data is encoded for a JPEG format.

dcampbell52 wrote:
In antivirus, the file is opened and examined by Norton, AVG or what ever and examined for strings that are equivalent to strings of data in a virus and then either resaved, saved in a vault for further review or deleted.

And nothing is done to change the JPEG encoding, therefore nothing that is done will even slightly degrade the image.

dcampbell52 wrote:
Your best bet with any images, but especially jpg is to backup to DVD or CD and put it away until you need it.

DVD's and worse yet CD's, are expensive in time and money. Buy external hard disk drives, and store them off site.

Reply
Jul 26, 2014 10:23:27   #
Artiekay Loc: East Syracuse, NY
 
redhogbill wrote:
I was looking at some photographs I took 6/10 years ago, that came out of a point and shoot at around 6mp, now are less than a 1k-kbs {between 800kbs to 300kbs}, I am pissed.. I do not think there is any way to restore, some were pretty good, they could have been worked with, now they don't even look good on the computer screen, @ about 50% they are pixelated!! there crap!!
I know everyone has there own way of saving files! I have recently learned to take the photo JUST in RAW, work with that and save , now I only make a JPG if I am posting to web site, then delete it from my library,
I remind you, that is just the way I am doing it, and when I learn a better way I will go with that ..

good luck
I was looking at some photographs I took 6/10 yea... (show quote)
The comparison of the MP that a camera will shoot to the file size of the jpeg that is produced is like comparing apples to oranges. They use different criteria. Contrary to what some people here have posted, simply moving a jpeg from one location to another will not reduce the file size. Nor will defragging or scanning with an anti-virus program. I don't know what application you used to transfer the photos from your camera to your computer, but some of them will create a separate folder with thumbnail images using the same filenames. I am thinking that you may have grabbed the thumbnail folder when you moved your photos. Is there any possibility that you can access the original hard drive that they were on? As for shooting in raw, i agree that is the way to go.

Rick

Reply
Jul 26, 2014 10:31:39   #
Apaflo Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
 
singleviking wrote:
Your GROSS HDD compression program is what did the file truncation of your photo files. To avoid this in the future, DO NOT COMPRESS PHOTO FILES WITH HDD COMPRESSION PROGRAMS. Store your files on an external drive so they can be reviewed without compression. Live and learn from your mistakes.

Explain how an HDD compression program would reduce the quality or the dimensions of a JPEG image?

That should never happen.

Reply
Jul 26, 2014 10:32:55   #
Apaflo Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
 
Artiekay wrote:
I am thinking that you may have grabbed the thumbnail folder when you moved your photos.

Bingo. I think Rick hit the jackpot with that suggestion.

Reply
 
 
Jul 26, 2014 11:06:39   #
redhogbill Loc: antelope, calif
 
dcampbell52 wrote:
You are correct, every time you run defrag, or your antivirus opens and checks the file or any number of other things happens on the computer like copying it to another directory or hard drive, it is the same as opening it and modifying it then resaving it. Jpgs will degrade without user intervention because your system and other files interaction on the system open it and resave it. Jpg will eventually be so bad as to be unusable.


:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: wished I had known that!!

Reply
Jul 26, 2014 11:10:20   #
Apaflo Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
 
redhogbill wrote:
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: wished I had known that!!

Why? It's not even true!

Reply
Jul 26, 2014 11:13:35   #
redhogbill Loc: antelope, calif
 
naturepics43 wrote:
I think you answered your own question. Each time you defrag your hard drive & compress the files, you are loosing info from each photo file.
If you did an external back-up of the photo files (CD or flash drive or external HD) the files will be OK!


yes!! I agree, unfortunately I did not know that then! all I can hope for is that someone new to photography will see this and not make the same mistake!! as I had stated in another post I now have back-ups/for the back-ups/for the back-ups again/ then archives to many to count!! I think I am up to 12 external hard drives!! AND COUNTING

;-)

Reply
Jul 26, 2014 11:14:03   #
mdorn Loc: Portland, OR
 
dcampbell52 wrote:
defrag doesn't just sit on the drive, the file is opened and combined into another spot on the drive. In defrag, as I am sure you understand being a computer engineer (this is what my electrical engineering degree is in) the drive has written bits of the software to various open spots across the drive and not necessarily in sequence. Defrag moves all of the bits and pieces to an open space creating a large open space at the beginning of the drive then moves the data again in order to fill the drive consecutively. This is at least 2 opens and saves usually more. In antivirus, the file is opened and examined by Norton, AVG or what ever and examined for strings that are equivalent to strings of data in a virus and then either resaved, saved in a vault for further review or deleted. This is why the process of running a virus scan takes so long. Watch a read/write program on your computer as the virus scan works. The reads and writes will jump dramatically showing the computer is actually opening then rewriting the data.

Your best bet with any images, but especially jpg is to backup to DVD or CD and put it away until you need it.
defrag doesn't just sit on the drive, the file is ... (show quote)


David, I think you are a little confused about defrag and data integrity. There is loads of documentation about this topic. Reading, writing, editing, copying, and deleting files causes a great deal of fragmentation; however, your defrag program doesn't do this---you do. Your defrag program only rearranges bits or blocks of data on your hard drive; it doesn't destroy, alter or remove data (which is what you are implying with JPEG files). Yikes, if this were the case, we'd be in a world of hurt. Yes, it's always a good idea to backup your data.

Reply
Page <<first <prev 3 of 6 next> last>>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main Photography Discussion
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.