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Lightroom vs Photoshop
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Apr 30, 2014 15:30:54   #
russelray Loc: La Mesa CA
 
Mark7829 wrote:
I agree it is not for amateurs. But I don't think it is faster than ACR for image editing. Please explain faster?

See my response post about Lightroom being "created" for amateurs.

As for ACR speed, I find that Photoshop CC 64-bit blows Lightroom 5.4 away in terms of speed.

I also find that ACR in Photoshop does much more than the slider controls in Lightroom.

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Apr 30, 2014 15:38:48   #
russelray Loc: La Mesa CA
 
Weddingguy wrote:
Here is a simplified explanation of why most accomplished photographers use both:

Where did you get your statistics because I can't find them in a Google search.

I am a member of three in-person photography clubs here, with a membership of around 3,450 people right now. At my egging back in November 2013 with all the Adobe Cloud brouhaha, we ran a poll in the three clubs asking which software programs people used and whether or not they considered themselves snapshooters, amateurs, semi-professionals, or professionals.

83% of our snapshooters used Lightroom exclusively.
71% of our amateurs used Lightroom exclusively.
58% of our semi-professionals used Lightroom exclusively.
22% of our professionals used Lightroom exclusively.

2% of our snapshooters used Photoshop exclusively.
9% of our amateurs used Photoshop exclusively.
21% of our semi-professionals used Photoshop exclusively.
62% of our professionals used Photoshop exclusively.

The other percentages included those who used other programs exclusively (Elements, PaintShop Pro, GIMP, Picasa, Aperture, ACDsee, etc) and those who used a combination of programs, such as Lightroom & Photoshop.

Although we have to be semi-rich to live in San Diego and California, I do think those results would be similar in any other state.

With the Internet, I was able to reach all 3,450 people, and because I offered a free Photographic Art creation of mine to respondents, I got responses from 3,451 people (one lady's high school son responded so he could get Photographic Art of his beloved dog, free).

To help respondents with categorizing, I offered this:
Snapshooters don't have a DSLR camera.
Amateurs have a DSLR camera.
Semi-professionals make some money each month from photography.
Professionals make more than 50% of their monthly income EACH MONTH from photography.

For software categorizing, I offered this:
Use Lightroom exclusively.
Use Elements exclusively.
Use Photoshop exclusively.
Use PaintShop exclusively.
Use any other program exclusively.
Use a combination of programs, such as Lightroom and Photoshop.

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Apr 30, 2014 16:08:38   #
Mark7829 Loc: Calfornia
 
Weddingguy wrote:
Sorry . . I don't know ACR, but my understanding is that they are based on the same platform. More accurate control of black and white points, sharpening, highlight, shadow and neutral controls and batching are a few things that come to mind. This was a comparison of LR and PS . . not ACR.


When you buy PS you get Adobe Bridge and Adobe Camera Raw (ACR) as utilities. There is no difference between ACR and LR. Adobe would suffer greatly if their ever was such a difference in IQ editing. No professional would use LR if it was less than ACR. Both do the same, one is limited without access to PS. There are interface differences that that I find to be cosmetic. Both are fully functional as Raw processors.

Yes, you can batch in ACR. You have great control of ALL image quality features in ACR and further control in PS because of layer masks, selection tools, gradients, etc.

PS is a total package and as such is superior to LR in addressing ALL image editing. For those who limit themselves in LR, there a new world of creativity if you venture into PS.

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Apr 30, 2014 16:24:59   #
Mark7829 Loc: Calfornia
 
Weddingguy wrote:
Here is a simplified explanation of why most accomplished photographers use both:

Every adjustment made to an image in Photoshop or any other editing program reduces the end quality . . . except on a RAW file.
Lightroom is designed to make precise adjustments on the RAW file before it is converted to JPG, TIFF, or another kind of file, without having altered the original RAW file or deteriorating the end quality of the file type to which it is converted.
Fine tuning and manipulation of the end file is best done in Photoshop.
Here is a simplified explanation of why most accom... (show quote)


PS which includes Adobe Bridge and Adobe Camera Raw does not alter the original file. Let me repeat, if you open up the original file of whatever raw file type in Bridge, ACR and then PS, the original is untouched. When the file is in PS, you will likely save it as a Photoshop file psd or other but you can not save over the original raw file. There is no option in PS to do so. When leaving PS the file is saved in a new format. You are left with two images - the raw file and the new file edited in PS. This is preferred.

You don't always convert a raw file after raw processing to jpeg. tiff or other. The original file remains with additional xmp or embedded file documenting the raw processing you have done. All of which can be reset if necessary but the raw file remains intact.

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Apr 30, 2014 16:28:08   #
MtnMan Loc: ID
 
elliott937 wrote:
MtnMan, I caught your last comment about "when CS6 no longer works (due to Adobe or Microsoft marketing strategies)". It would be my understanding that once any of us would have purchased CS5 or CS6, for example, we own the CD/DVD with the program on it, and it will continue to work (for a very long time) on our own computers. I'm much aware of Microsoft wanting future customers to "rent" OFFICE by making monthly payments for ""Cloud"" access. And Adobe seems well on its way to that marketing model.

Are you suggesting that Adobe will have the future (or current) ability to block us CS5 and CS6 users from continuing to use what is already on our machines?
MtnMan, I caught your last comment about "whe... (show quote)


Not exactly. As long as you can keep a your machine running with it's current windows version you can continue to use the program you have as long as you want. There is no way they can stop that.

But Adobe has a history of stopping to offer updates to a given release at some time. The biggest deal is with ACR. If you can't update ACR there will come a time when you can't handle the RAW files of new cameras.

Likewise Microsoft puts out new operating systems that are sometimes not compatible with existing software, requiring you to update the software to run with the latest operating system. That was a huge problem when they went to Windows 7. Not so much, so far, with 8.

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Apr 30, 2014 16:32:42   #
mborn Loc: Massachusetts
 
Searcher wrote:
I will try to explain:
1. I am an avid user of both LR and PS, both are essential to my workflow.
2. the ACR in LR is the same as in PS, it is not a "Lite" version,
3. I do not like Bridge, primarily because I find the interface difficult to see, everything (menus etc. are so small).
4. I use LR as the core to my image management. I now have approx. 106,000 images, any one of which I can find in about 3-20 seconds without knowing the file name (assuming I have the correct external drive plugged in).
5. As soon as my camera is attached to the computer, LR will open and copy those photos into the import module with no intervention from me. I choose a home made import preset to tell LR what to do with those images, ie whether to copy or move, whether to put them into dated folder or altogether into one folder for culling, press the Import button and a couple of minutes later disconnect the camera.
6. Next is to sort into collections, this is the crux of storing files for instant retrieval. Some images go into more than one collection. I rarely use keywords or tags to find images, but I usually do put them onto images in a general way. I do not date the images, the Exif data already contains dates and LR can search on Exif data.
7. All my images are raw files, so when I decide to edit I do that through the built in ACR (which is the same ACR as in PS but with a much better interface)
8. If I need to utilise the facilities offered by PS for further editing, 3 clicks will create a new copy (to preserve the original) open PS and load the image into PS for layering or whatever. PS editing done, just CNT + S and the updated image is back in Lightroom sitting next to the original.
9. No need to save, it's all there in the catalogue and xmp files already.
10. I can print from LR easier than from PS, make a movie, design book, run and save a slide show or just turn off.

Once the concept of how Lightroom works is understood, learning curve is minimal - its getting that concept that many find difficult.
I will try to explain: br 1. I am an avid user of ... (show quote)


Great answer :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

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Apr 30, 2014 16:41:50   #
MtnMan Loc: ID
 
russelray wrote:
Where did you get your statistics because I can't find them in a Google search.

I am a member of three in-person photography clubs here, with a membership of around 3,450 people right now. At my egging back in November 2013 with all the Adobe Cloud brouhaha, we ran a poll in the three clubs asking which software programs people used and whether or not they considered themselves snapshooters, amateurs, semi-professionals, or professionals.

83% of our snapshooters used Lightroom exclusively.
71% of our amateurs used Lightroom exclusively.
58% of our semi-professionals used Lightroom exclusively.
22% of our professionals used Lightroom exclusively.

2% of our snapshooters used Photoshop exclusively.
9% of our amateurs used Photoshop exclusively.
21% of our semi-professionals used Photoshop exclusively.
62% of our professionals used Photoshop exclusively.

The other percentages included those who used other programs exclusively (Elements, PaintShop Pro, GIMP, Picasa, Aperture, ACDsee, etc) and those who used a combination of programs, such as Lightroom & Photoshop.

Although we have to be semi-rich to live in San Diego and California, I do think those results would be similar in any other state.

With the Internet, I was able to reach all 3,450 people, and because I offered a free Photographic Art creation of mine to respondents, I got responses from 3,451 people (one lady's high school son responded so he could get Photographic Art of his beloved dog, free).

To help respondents with categorizing, I offered this:
Snapshooters don't have a DSLR camera.
Amateurs have a DSLR camera.
Semi-professionals make some money each month from photography.
Professionals make more than 50% of their monthly income EACH MONTH from photography.

For software categorizing, I offered this:
Use Lightroom exclusively.
Use Elements exclusively.
Use Photoshop exclusively.
Use PaintShop exclusively.
Use any other program exclusively.
Use a combination of programs, such as Lightroom and Photoshop.
Where did you get your statistics because I can't ... (show quote)


Thanks for sharing actual data. As you note, it is rare.

The statistics are generally aligned with what I suspected. The only surprise is that some people use Photoshop exclusively. I haven't met anyone in our club in that group...but then I'm not sure we have any professionals that satisfy your definition.

Most of our club members also use other software such as Silver Efix, Topaz, or Nik. But not as their primary tool.

We actually had a Lightroom demonstration as our club meeting last night. Six of the most accomplished members took random RAW files and demonstrated their workflow. Most had a point at which they said, "and now I'd go into X to...". None of them claimed to use Photoshop as their first tool. The mentioned Photoshop less than half the time.

For the less familiar: please do not get the idea that Lightroom is limited to RAW file processing. Most of the functions (like 99%) work the same with jpeg or other file formats. The only two exceptions that I can recall that do not are: 1. With RAW files you get a tabular listing of white balance choices whereas with other file types you need to use one of the other methods; e.g. temperature, and 2. You don't get the camera's picture control profiles.

So if your camera doesn't deliver RAW file type, or you choose not to use it, not to worry. Lightroom will still work fine for you.

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Apr 30, 2014 16:52:14   #
MtnMan Loc: ID
 
Mark7829 wrote:
PS which includes Adobe Bridge and Adobe Camera Raw does not alter the original file. Let me repeat, if you open up the original file of whatever raw file type in Bridge, ACR and then PS, the original is untouched. When the file is in PS, you will likely save it as a Photoshop file psd or other but you can not save over the original raw file. There is no option in PS to do so. When leaving PS the file is saved in a new format. You are left with two images - the raw file and the new file edited in PS. This is preferred.

You don't always convert a raw file after raw processing to jpeg. tiff or other. The original file remains with additional xmp or embedded file documenting the raw processing you have done. All of which can be reset if necessary but the raw file remains intact.
PS which includes Adobe Bridge and Adobe Camera Ra... (show quote)


I suspect over 90% of UHH users shoot jpeg.

So your point, while correct, doesn't apply to them. Each time you edit and save a jpeg file in Photoshop you degrade it.

Of course you can (as I did when I used Elements) always use "save as". Also, it is correct that if you save as a psd file instead of a jpeg the original jpeg isn't affected. Some get the mistaken idea that opening and closing jpeg files causes distortion. It doesn't. It is only when you save as a jpeg that you lose information.

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Apr 30, 2014 16:55:46   #
caljr Loc: Indiana
 
I'm a retired retouch artist by trade and use photoshop all the time. One very good professional photographer once told me that I would rather spend 1/100 of a second than 1 hour on 1 photo, so if you know your camera, lighting and have a good eye then all you need is a good way of keeping track of your images.

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Apr 30, 2014 17:49:31   #
Clarkster Loc: Germansville, PA
 
Thought I was one of the few that had little use for LR:-) I find it redundant and simply annoying. Think perhaps if I had not been using PS for so many years I might have more appreciation for its attempt to streamline a photographer's workflow.
The amount of restoration and image editing I need to do is far beyond the capabilities of Lightroom.

kymarto wrote:
They do complement each other to some extent, but I have to say that after using Photoshop for many years, I find Lightroom a complete disappointment. I find the workflow confusing and byzantine, and generally speaking Photoshop much easier to use for every functionality it shares with LR. Perhaps if one uses Lightroom to simply organize and do some simple adjustments to digital files it is good, but it serves me not at all.

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Apr 30, 2014 19:19:00   #
Mark7829 Loc: Calfornia
 
MtnMan wrote:
I suspect over 90% of UHH users shoot jpeg.

So your point, while correct, doesn't apply to them. Each time you edit and save a jpeg file in Photoshop you degrade it.

Of course you can (as I did when I used Elements) always use "save as". Also, it is correct that if you save as a psd file instead of a jpeg the original jpeg isn't affected. Some get the mistaken idea that opening and closing jpeg files causes distortion. It doesn't. It is only when you save as a jpeg that you lose information.
I suspect over 90% of UHH users shoot jpeg. br b... (show quote)


I REALLY DOUBT THAT - no one who spends any time in these forums shoots all JPEG. Those who shoot JPEG have really no need or rather do not really want to do any post processing or improve on their photography. People in here want to improve on their work and passion and that included shooting in raw and processing. And they are in these forums to do just that.

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Apr 30, 2014 19:33:57   #
nikonwaddy
 
I have to tell you that by following these forum all day, even though it's getting really long in tooth, I have learned a lot. I am a CC subscriber and trying to learn some editing stuff. I have had Elements and its iterations for years but now hoping to get into the real deal....Thanks to all Y'all..!

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Apr 30, 2014 23:01:55   #
Bazbo Loc: Lisboa, Portugal
 
robertvente wrote:
I noticed you own an D800e. I also noticed you pretty much know what you are talking about. So would you tell me how you like the D800e? i am thinking of buying one, I am using the D700 right now and I like it a lot. Do you have challenges with larger files, do you shoot the larger files or 'tone it down' sometimes?
Is the workflow slower because of these. What is the highest ISO this camera can handle and still look really good.
I get a lot of assignments and shoot every day, it's a big decision so my questions are serious.
I respect your feedback on PS and LR, I feel the same.
Looking forward to your response and thanking you in advance.
I noticed you own an D800e. I also noticed you pre... (show quote)


I do not know if you were asking me, but I will throw in my 2 cents anyway.

I shoot an 800e, a 7100 and a 300 (for back up/emergencies).

The 800e is a fabulous camera in almost every way. When I pair it with my old Zeiss lenses, it comes very close to what I good do with the old 'blad. It even surpass the old system in some circumstances. I love the large FX crop and the large files. Some downsides to consider:

It is pricey. Obviously I think its worth the money, but everyone has to decide for themselves.

It is heavier than the 7000. The files are huge, especially when you shoot raw and then convert to TIFF, so you need to have a very fast computer and adequate HD spec, or cloud storage.

I have pushed the ISO to 3200 without much noise. I am sure there are others here that have pushed this farther.

If you pair it with a DX lens, you must remember to change the crop in the camera.

I seem to experience buffer overflow a lot more than with any DX camera. This might just be me.

That being said, I love this camera and it is my first choice for most (not all) situations.

Good luck and post some pix.

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May 1, 2014 01:02:07   #
kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy
 
Bazbo wrote:
I too am (was) a PS user that is completely flummoxed and frustrated by LR. I was a little spooked by not having my own software and paying a license fee instead. I am coming to the conclusion that that reasoning was a mistake.

Question: I use Silver eFex Pro extensively. Would this be a problem with PS CC?


It's not a problem at all. I am still spooked by the subscription model, because I have had a number of problems with connecting with Adobe and not much way to contact them for help. I find the model coercive. There is a lot of professional s/w that uses a maintenance model, in which you pay a recurring fee and the s/w is automatically updated. The minute you stop paying the updates stop, but what you have already paid for, you get to keep.

I appreciate that the subscription model lowers the entry bar, but the exit bar is much too high.

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May 1, 2014 01:13:48   #
kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy
 
russelray wrote:
See my response post about Lightroom being "created" for amateurs.

As for ACR speed, I find that Photoshop CC 64-bit blows Lightroom 5.4 away in terms of speed.

I also find that ACR in Photoshop does much more than the slider controls in Lightroom.


My experience here is that there is more "range" using the Shadows and Highlights sliders in LR than in ACR, which is why LR is used for one HDR technique. It doesn't work nearly as well in ACR. That being said, I find LR extremely slow in almost everything, compared to PS.

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