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Bokeh redux
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Mar 4, 2014 17:59:56   #
Rongnongno Loc: FL
 
Stop groaning and read!!!

First of all this is a Japanese word that means diffused, dispersed. It was first used by a Japanese optical engineer to describe the diffusion circles created in camera by any object out of focus in the fore or back ground.

The word was adapted in the west, by photographers, to mean well defined diffusion circles created by light in the background. This definition is not universally accepted and few use the term simply to say 'out of focus' therefore everything not in focus is 'bokeh'.

When looking at this closer bokeh comes in five different flavors
article wrote:
(Source).

- The first is transition bokeh. It’s the blur that results as the dof gradually fades out, when sharp areas transition to being out of focus. But at what point is that out of focus area simply out of focus, and when in the continuous transition does it become bokeh? That’s hard to say. People usually think of bokeh as a blurry area that isn’t easily recognizable as anything in particular, or at least it doesn’t look much like the thing you think it is. So if you examine the above shot of the paint splattered bench, where does the bokeh begin?... You decide.

- Background Bokeh: The second type is background bokeh. Think of an outdoor portrait of a person from the waist up, and an attractive blurry background that looks like it might be leaves and flowers. Portrait photographers often use background bokeh. When done well, it greatly enhances the portrait. In fact, many people tend to think of bokeh as being this background type.

- Foreground Bokeh: However, foreground bokeh is possible too. Some people think it’s too distracting and don’t like it as much as background bokeh. It seems to block the eye’s path to the subject that is in focus. But that’s not necessarily true in all cases. In fact, an eye-catching foreground bokeh might enhance the composition.

- The paint-splattered bench, you’ll often see images involving an in-focus area that gradually transitions away from us into background bokeh, or one that gradually changes to foreground bokeh as it moves towards us, or one that does both. It’s an interesting effect. The in-focus area seems to resolve from or dissolve into the background or foreground blur, or it emerges from a sandwiched position between the background and foreground bokeh.

- Glint Bokeh: The fourth type is glint bokeh. It’s the blurry circles or patches of light from lamps, light bulbs, or small shiny surfaces in the background (and maybe sometimes in the foreground). Distant points of light, especially in a dark scene, light shining though leaves, and specular reflections in daylight often create pleasing bokeh. In fact, when many people talk about bokeh, it’s often this background glint type that they’re referring to.
( url=http://www.truecenterpublishing.com Source /... (show quote)

Furthermore after researching the subject you discover that many sites dedicated to Bokeh exists. Folks share their 'bokeh' and that led to a division of 'good' and 'bad' bokeh. The 'good' bokeh is the 'background' bokeh and the 'glint' bokeh. The rest is just bad and discarded as, well, bad bokeh photography.

When you look at bokeh from the camera point of view, the fore ground bokeh is formed by a cone of light diffusing away from the lens and as such has no visible center, visible being the keyword. The background bokeh on the other end is a cone of light directed toward the camera and had a specific center as in the case of 'glint' bokeh.

Two additional interesting observations: The bokeh stops being visible when it hits the focus plane. The cone formed have an angle of diffusion equal to the lens's. This is why the bokeh is more distinct on a long lens than on a wide angle lens. One more thing... The axes of the cones intersect at the lens nodal point which brings a third observation... Medium range prime lenses will create a more attractive bokeh because their nodal point never moves and is more accurate than in a zoom lens. The longer lenses flatten everything and render the bokeh somewhat less desirable.

All of this being said, for me and ONLY for me, 'good' bokeh is always formed in the background from any point that reflect light toward the lens under the form of diffusion circle with a visible edge.

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Mar 4, 2014 18:03:25   #
Pine1 Loc: Midland & Lakeway
 
Thank you. You have a way of cutting the chase and I appreciate all your comments.
Rongnongno wrote:
Stop groaning and read!!!

First of all this is a Japanese word that means diffused, dispersed. It was first used by a Japanese optical engineer to describe the diffusion circles created in camera by any object out of focus in the fore or back ground.

The word was adapted in the west, by photographers, to mean well defined diffusion circles created by light in the background. This definition is not universally accepted and few use the term simply to say 'out of focus' therefore everything not in focus is 'bokeh'.

When looking at this closer bokeh comes in five different flavors (1).

- The first is transition bokeh. It’s the blur that results as the dof gradually fades out, when sharp areas transition to being out of focus. But at what point is that out of focus area simply out of focus, and when in the continuous transition does it become bokeh? That’s hard to say. People usually think of bokeh as a blurry area that isn’t easily recognizable as anything in particular, or at least it doesn’t look much like the thing you think it is. So if you examine the above shot of the paint splattered bench, where does the bokeh begin?... You decide.

- Background Bokeh: The second type is background bokeh. Think of an outdoor portrait of a person from the waist up, and an attractive blurry background that looks like it might be leaves and flowers. Portrait photographers often use background bokeh. When done well, it greatly enhances the portrait. In fact, many people tend to think of bokeh as being this background type.

- Foreground Bokeh: However, foreground bokeh is possible too. Some people think it’s too distracting and don’t like it as much as background bokeh. It seems to block the eye’s path to the subject that is in focus. But that’s not necessarily true in all cases. In fact, an eye-catching foreground bokeh might enhance the composition.

- The paint-splattered bench, you’ll often see images involving an in-focus area that gradually transitions away from us into background bokeh, or one that gradually changes to foreground bokeh as it moves towards us, or one that does both. It’s an interesting effect. The in-focus area seems to resolve from or dissolve into the background or foreground blur, or it emerges from a sandwiched position between the background and foreground bokeh.

- Glint Bokeh: The fourth type is glint bokeh. It’s the blurry circles or patches of light from lamps, light bulbs, or small shiny surfaces in the background (and maybe sometimes in the foreground). Distant points of light, especially in a dark scene, light shining though leaves, and specular reflections in daylight often create pleasing bokeh. In fact, when many people talk about bokeh, it’s often this backgrond glint type that they’re referring to.

Furthermore after researching the subjects you discover that many sites dedicated to Bokeh exists. Folks share their 'bokeh' and that led to a division of 'good' and 'bad' bokeh. The 'good' bokeh is the 'background' bokeh and the 'glint' bokeh. The rest is just bad and discarded as, well, bad photography.

When you look at bokeh from the camera point of view, the fore ground bokeh is formed by a cone of light diffusing away from the lens and as such as no visible center, visible being the keyword. The background bokeh on the other end is a cone of light directed toward the camera and had a specific center in the case of 'glint' bokeh.

Two additional interesting observations: The bokeh stops being visible when it hits the focus plane. The cone formed have angle of diffusion equal to the lens angle. This is why the bokeh is more distinct on a long lens than on a wide angle lens. One more thing... The axes of the cones intersect at the lens nodal point which brings a third observation... Medium range prime lenses will create a more attractive bokeh because their nodal point never moves and is more accurate than a in a zoom lens. The longer lenses flatten everything and render the bokeh somewhat less desirable.

All of this being said, for me and ONLY for me, 'good' bokeh is always formed in the background from any point that reflect light toward the lens under the form of diffusion circle with a visible edge.
Stop groaning and read!!! br br First of all this... (show quote)

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Mar 4, 2014 20:14:56   #
Nikonian72 Loc: Chico CA
 
Rongnongno wrote:
. . . 'good' bokeh is always formed in the background from any point that reflect light toward the lens under the form of diffusion circle with a visible edge.
I'll buy that.

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Mar 5, 2014 06:46:24   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
And lenses that use round cut, 9 bladed diaphragms, will often produce smoother, rounded bokeh than those with fewer, straight cut diaphragms, when the lens is stopped down. Zoom lenses are capable of smooth bokeh, like the Nikon 70-200. Some lenses, like the two DC lenses, allow you to control the bokeh. This "defocus control" is something that most lenses have, but can only be adjusted when the lens is dismantled. Nikon's 105 and 135 DC lenses provides this as a consumer adjustable feature on the outside of the lens.

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Mar 5, 2014 08:44:17   #
Dave Chinn
 
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

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Mar 5, 2014 09:41:14   #
DickC Loc: NE Washington state
 
And nothing is said about the subject matter you choose!!
:)

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Mar 5, 2014 09:53:16   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
This is a wonderful, all-inclusive description of Bokeh - from a reliable source - one of the horses mouths - if you will -

http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Learn-And-Explore/Article/h0ndz86v/bokeh-for-beginners.html

Can we finally put this thread to rest?

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Mar 5, 2014 15:45:56   #
dickwilber Loc: Indiana (currently)
 
Well done, Rongnongno!

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Mar 5, 2014 16:17:09   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
"Medium range prime lenses will create a more attractive bokeh because their nodal point never moves and is more accurate than a in a zoom lens. The longer lenses flatten everything and render the bokeh somewhat less desirable."

What about lenses with two nodal points, and lenses that are not "simple" primes where the nodal point moves with focus? Please elaborate - and how do you explain the great bokeh on a Nikon 70-200 F2.8?

Your explanation sounds impressive, but I think it is filled with assumptions that are not necessarily be accurate.

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Mar 5, 2014 18:20:16   #
Rongnongno Loc: FL
 
gene51 wrote:
...
Check the working nodal point of a zoom. It is never stable (ie moves ever so slightly with the focal lengh selected). That motion along the camera optical axe is what creates color aberrations and reduces the quality of the 'bokeh'.

If you did not notice I do not dismiss zooms out of hand, just like that. I just mention that the zoom nodal point is less accurate than a prime lens and as such creates less attractive 'bokeh' than a prime lens.

As to your notion of assumptions and not being accurate. You are free to think what you must. Trouble is I have been researching this for a few weeks* now so as to be not only informed but also accurate. Sorry to disappoint you. Do your own research please then with it come and debunk what I typed.

---
Since a thread (January 27 to be exact) that made me look much closer at 'bokeh . I assumed that there was only one 'bokeh'. I was wrong. When I get into a confrontation about anything I want to know why so not only I learn but also I can progress in other areas.

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Mar 5, 2014 18:33:12   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
R- what you say about nodal points not moving really only applies to "simple" primes - where the lenses actually change length as you focus them. Nearly all new lenses use internal focusing which typically shortens focal length as you focus at the near limit. It is not unusual for a 105mm lens to become a 90mm lens or shorter at the near focusing distance. Correspondingly, the image magnification changes, manifesting itself as "focus breathing" and the position of the nodal point changes. And some prime lenses have a dual nodal point. So, I guess your research of several weeks may still need more time to grasp the concept with complete information. BTW, I was a physics major in college, and have been a photographer for 48 years, and I have worked with all sorts of film and digital cameras, panoramic cameras where the lens actually rotated as the film moved through the camera to create a wide negative - similar to this http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/321205125142?lpid=82

and have worked with various pano heads, made a simple two axis one out of wood, and currently use the RRS pano head. Out of curiosity more than anything else, what are your credentials?

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Mar 5, 2014 18:37:33   #
Rongnongno Loc: FL
 
Here we go again. Go play somewhere else. There is a nice sandbox for you.

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Mar 5, 2014 19:04:23   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
At least provide complete and factual responses - you have made some startlingly inaccurate generalized statements, based on second or third hand experience - that clearly illustrate your limited knowledge and comprehension of the subject matter. And all you can come up with is "find another sandbox"? Seriously? Dropping terms and names may sound impressive, but to the real cognoscenti - :)

Here is a little primer that is pretty clear - it explains that bokeh is the quality of what is out of focus, and generally speaking the smoother and less intrusive it is on the subject being focused on, the higher the "quality" of the bokeh - I bet you've never laid eyes on a Nikkor 105 F2 DC, or even contemplated how in addition to rendering out of focus elements smoothly and unobtrusively, some legendary Leitz and Zeiss lens designs even addressed the contrast in the bokeh, lowering it to provide a subtle yet present increase in emphasis on the subject in focus. And there is such a thing as bad background bokeh - many lenses have it.

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/files/bokehrankings5.pdf

"Good" bokeh, is not, as you have stated, only in the background and only containing visible edges. Quite the contrary - a smooth transition from the center of something that, if in focus, would have a clearly defined edge, but because it is out of focus and rendered with "good bokeh" shows a soft and very gradual transition from its center to it's edges. That is what is considered good bokeh, at least in Japan and in the West.

Here is yet another illustration of the concept:

http://www.aguntherphotography.com/reviews/bokeh.html

And I am not picking on you, BTW, just setting the record strait, with references provided, so that other readers won't get wrong impression. Have a nice evening. And open up your website so we can see your wonderful work - the cover shot is really nice, I am sure there is lots of great work in there.

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Mar 5, 2014 19:11:49   #
Rongnongno Loc: FL
 
I guess I did not tell you the sand box was full of dog poop, that is their playground, you know.

Sorry about the mess.

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Mar 5, 2014 19:17:30   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
R - keep reading, I am certain that eventually you'll figure it out. Watch out for the poop, there is a lot of that going around.

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