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Dec 28, 2013 20:46:24   #
oldtigger Loc: Roanoke Virginia-USA
 
Answeres like that make this forum worth visiting; thank you MDI

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Dec 29, 2013 05:45:17   #
speters Loc: Grangeville/Idaho
 
oldtigger wrote:
While everyones attention is on winterrose/jenny i thought i might sneak this question thru.

1. the painter who created certainly had rights

2. Did the photographer who cropped the oainting out of its museum setting and changed from oil to photo acquire any rights?

3.When i altered the photo for my own taste and consumption did i acquire any rights?

If said person would try to publish said photograph, it would be infringement already (even if it is altered, that fact does not matter whatsoever).

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Dec 29, 2013 06:18:49   #
wj cody Loc: springfield illinois
 
i always thought it was simple, in an instance such as this, you don't screw with other peoples' work!

ah, but then, i'm a snob.

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Dec 29, 2013 08:05:04   #
sb Loc: Florida's East Coast
 
The PAINTER knows who he/she is!

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Dec 29, 2013 08:30:42   #
dpullum Loc: Tampa Florida
 
If I were to use say Ansel Adams photos here to discuss and modify to discuss modifications, balance, approaches for landscapes, etc... holding an academic discussion like this one on "Copyright" is that not legal under fair use? Or... in this case Oldtigger used and states that the image usage is for academic discussion. ... OR to discuss techniques of photo manipulation ... Photo 1 vs photo 2.

"Fair use" does not require me to acquiring permission from the rights holders. Examples of fair use include commentary,research, teaching, and scholarship. (paraphrased from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use)

The point being, or question being, if we use a copyrighted photo here in UHH without permission is it not for an "academic discussion" and thus "Fair Use"? (exception being Gallery)

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Dec 29, 2013 08:33:57   #
steveg48
 
I was at a street painting event in Lake Worth Florida. In this event, artists sit on the street and draw artwork on the pavement with chalk. Most of the efforts were excellent. I took some images of individual artists and their artwork (incomplete, as they were in progress) as they were working on the street. Do I have the rights to these images?

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Dec 29, 2013 08:48:41   #
artBob Loc: Near Chicago
 
Very good explanations in general. I see two areas of greyness. One, this site is not likely to be liable to be sued for oldtigger's post under the "fair use" section of the copyright law. He is using this one time, as an educational tool.

A greyer area would occur if I took the image and, say, shrunk it, changed the colors, erased the sea and included it with other images and original painting in an artwork for sale. I, and other artists have done things like this. The lines are blurred. The concept of the golden rule helps, but that is not a legal document.

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Dec 29, 2013 08:54:03   #
lightchime Loc: Somewhere Over The Rainbow
 
oldtigger wrote:
i had the narrow impression that store fronts, faces and products were the only thing to be wary of. It appears that using any portion of a copyrighted material for a purpose other than obvious humor should also be avoided.



This leads to a question that I don't remember previously being addressed on UHH.

Obvious humor is an interpretation that all may not hold. Why should "obvious humor" be an exception limiting the original rights of the artist?

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Dec 29, 2013 08:56:55   #
David Kay Loc: Arlington Heights IL
 
riada22 wrote:
Copyright is a very strange thing and most web sites will try their best to avoid any infringement, any site that allows it to happen can be closed down, do we want this to happen to UHH.


If this is true then Google should be shut down. If you look at google images section. All of those images are taken from websites without permission.

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Dec 29, 2013 08:59:43   #
David Kay Loc: Arlington Heights IL
 
oldtigger wrote:
i had the narrow impression that store fronts, faces and products were the only thing to be wary of. It appears that using any portion of a copyrighted material for a purpose other than obvious humor should also be avoided.


You can also get into trouble if you photograph someones home and then sell the photos. To do that legally you need for the owner to sign a property release or use form.

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Dec 29, 2013 09:15:22   #
AntonioReyna Loc: Los Angeles, California
 
very thorough response. Laws vary from location to location, but it is always better to be safe than sorry.
PalePictures wrote:
Some points.

Any person posting a photo or image that was not produced by them and not disclosing that it is not theirs is an ethical issue no matter what their reason.
Especially if by nature one would assume the image is yours.

By posting an image like what was done in the critique section puts this site at risk for civil litigation. Since the lawsuit would not be deemed frivolous it would cost this site substantially to fight such litigation. Especially if there was damage deemed to be done to the artist reputation. Having an image critiqued and by not disclosing it was a drawing could have easily been deemed detrimental to and a misrepresentation of the artist work.
The more reputable the sight and the more profitable the more they are at risk. Some of my attorney friends would take a case like this on contingency if the forum was big enough.(Had enough income)

The admin here is consistent. He has always removed threads that were posted where the primary thread image was taken from somewhere(not the thread creators). It is irrelevant what the reason.

The admin here is really good. As he has said before. Things usually work themselves out over time. You threaten the admins here and you're gone.
Posting more than a single stolen(lifted or,whatever you want call it) is a risk and threat to the admin. They usually let one go per individual.

There have been three cases at least over the last two years that I am aware of where some one has started a thread and not disclosed it was someone else image. One claimed it was an accident and asked for forgiveness. One was "I never had enough time to explain". It didn't take two days and his mother didn't die(LOL). Both of the prior examples were resolved quickly and everyone moved on. In neither case did the perpetrators create multiple threads trying to justify their position.

Every forum that I participate in has this "stolen photo"rule. If they didn't I would not participate.
Viewbug has this rule.
500px has this rule.

The bottom line is no one is going to throw you in jail. It's civil not criminal.
It s more of a civil risk to the site than the individual.

Using an immoral means to justify some self perceived moral ends is absurd.

It starts getting more questionable if the image was modified beyond recognition. In this case is it really enough of a similarity? Maybe.
Could the artist of your modified image been accused of some sort of misrepresenting the original's artist intent? Probably.

The smart thing is to do the right thing. Why would anyone with credibility and integrity want to call into question their moral compass. (Politicians excluded)

Who was it who said "you can't cheat an honest man"?

"It is a common belief that people get rich by stealing in prison and Harvard Business School"

Bottom line is this.

If you do the art like you described and you keep it in you living room...not much risk.
If you sell it locally not much risk
If you create a site and generate a moderate income from the sale. Yep you got risk.
If you became famous and sold these for a lot of money. Let me know so I can contact my attorney for a deal.
Some points. br br Any person posting a photo or ... (show quote)

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Dec 29, 2013 09:22:49   #
oldtigger Loc: Roanoke Virginia-USA
 
It would be rather ridiculous for us to say that every photo of a bird in flight, first grand-child or vase of flowers is a violation of someones copyright.
There must be some condition which renders an image as an original.
There must be some deviation from a 'theme' which makes it a 'new' image.
There must be some quality of the photographers "intent" that makes it ok to make another capture of that over-worked lion cub on a termite mound.

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Dec 29, 2013 10:06:38   #
amyinsparta Loc: White county, TN
 
probably no big deal unless you want to sell/publicly display your rendition. Then, there could be issues.

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Dec 29, 2013 10:13:37   #
autofocus Loc: North Central Connecticut
 
David Kay wrote:
You can also get into trouble if you photograph someones home and then sell the photos. To do that legally you need for the owner to sign a property release or use form.


Well, this may only be part true. If a shot, say of a winter scene of a barn (not yours) was taken from a public area, such as a roadway, no property release is required. However, step one foot, and shot from the owner's property, it is then that you would need a property release. For many years it was commonly believed that one would be in violation of copyright if they were to photograph the Flatiron building in NYC...maybe a "nice try" by the owners or architect, but proven to be perfectly legal if shot from a public location, and obviously, many shots have legally been taken over the years

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Dec 29, 2013 10:36:58   #
GaryI Loc: NY & Fla
 
PalePictures wrote:
Some points.

Any person posting a photo or image that was not produced by them and not disclosing that it is not theirs is an ethical issue no matter what their reason.
Especially if by nature one would assume the image is yours.

By posting an image like what was done in the critique section puts this site at risk for civil litigation. Since the lawsuit would not be deemed frivolous it would cost this site substantially to fight such litigation. Especially if there was damage deemed to be done to the artist reputation. Having an image critiqued and by not disclosing it was a drawing could have easily been deemed detrimental to and a misrepresentation of the artist work.
The more reputable the sight and the more profitable the more they are at risk. Some of my attorney friends would take a case like this on contingency if the forum was big enough.(Had enough income)

The admin here is consistent. He has always removed threads that were posted where the primary thread image was taken from somewhere(not the thread creators). It is irrelevant what the reason.

The admin here is really good. As he has said before. Things usually work themselves out over time. You threaten the admins here and you're gone.
Posting more than a single stolen(lifted or,whatever you want call it) is a risk and threat to the admin. They usually let one go per individual.

There have been three cases at least over the last two years that I am aware of where some one has started a thread and not disclosed it was someone else image. One claimed it was an accident and asked for forgiveness. One was "I never had enough time to explain". It didn't take two days and his mother didn't die(LOL). Both of the prior examples were resolved quickly and everyone moved on. In neither case did the perpetrators create multiple threads trying to justify their position.

Every forum that I participate in has this "stolen photo"rule. If they didn't I would not participate.
Viewbug has this rule.
500px has this rule.

The bottom line is no one is going to throw you in jail. It's civil not criminal.
It s more of a civil risk to the site than the individual.

Using an immoral means to justify some self perceived moral ends is absurd.

It starts getting more questionable if the image was modified beyond recognition. In this case is it really enough of a similarity? Maybe.
Could the artist of your modified image been accused of some sort of misrepresenting the original's artist intent? Probably.

The smart thing is to do the right thing. Why would anyone with credibility and integrity want to call into question their moral compass. (Politicians excluded)

Who was it who said "you can't cheat an honest man"?

"It is a common belief that people get rich by stealing in prison and Harvard Business School"

Bottom line is this.

If you do the art like you described and you keep it in you living room...not much risk.
If you sell it locally not much risk
If you create a site and generate a moderate income from the sale. Yep you got risk.
If you became famous and sold these for a lot of money. Let me know so I can contact my attorney for a deal.
Some points. br br Any person posting a photo or ... (show quote)


Great response. In addition, enforcement of copyrights are civil, meaning the only recourse one has to a copyright infringement is to hire a lawyer and sue the violator for damages. The damages would be some small % of the acquired $ sale of the art and may very well take years. So unless there's significant revenue from the sale of the copy, the whole exercise is useless.

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