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Everybody is a photographer
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Jan 2, 2012 11:31:21   #
forbescat
 
ONE time I made the mistake of agreeing to do family pictures for a friend of my daughter-in-law. It was at their house because Grandma couldn't travel. When the "friend" came to my house to get the pictures, she wanted me to switch her head from one picture to another. I don't have a business, don't want a business and was not charging her. I couldn't wait to get her out of my house. I don't think I have the right temperament and that has to be a big part of success or failure.

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Jan 2, 2012 11:43:58   #
MWAC Loc: Somewhere East Of Crazy
 
While I'm all for people following their dreams, I will be honest I do get upset when I see posts saying along the lines "I just got a nice camera, how do I sell my pictures" when someone is obviously new to photography and they are taking on clients.

I do think the business side of photography has been cheapen, the public no longer realizes that it takes talent that to run a successful photography business. The uneducated public thinks that slapping your expensive camera on Auto and running some PS actions at full strenght is all it takes to be a Pro. I do feel bad for the photographer that has talent and has to deal with clients calling and asking why they don't charge $100 for a disk full of images, or why they don't give away the disk just like X,YZ Photography. But times have changed, and the public wants fast and cheap over quality. I shutter when I walk into friends homes and see some of the "Professioal" protrait work that they have paid for.

I'm not a professional, have no desire, need or drive to become one. I don't want to deal with clients, they take the fun right out of photography for me.

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Jan 2, 2012 11:59:47   #
FOTOSTAN Loc: Ca..NYC..Fla.
 
MWAC wrote:
While I'm all for people following their dreams, I will be honest I do get upset when I see posts saying along the lines "I just got a nice camera, how do I sell my pictures" when someone is obviously new to photography and they are taking on clients.

I do think the business side of photography has been cheapen, the public no longer realizes that it takes talent that to run a successful photography business. The uneducated public thinks that slapping your expensive camera on Auto and running some PS actions at full strenght is all it takes to be a Pro. I do feel bad for the photographer that has talent and has to deal with clients calling and asking why they don't charge $100 for a disk full of images, or why they don't give away the disk just like X,YZ Photography. But times have changed, and the public wants fast and cheap over quality. I shutter when I walk into friends homes and see some of the "Professioal" protrait work that they have paid for.

I'm not a professional, have no desire, need or drive to become one. I don't want to deal with clients, they take the fun right out of photography for me.
While I'm all for people following their dreams, I... (show quote)


Thank you for defending the art of professional photography..

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Jan 2, 2012 12:17:01   #
Jon Boy Loc: Missouri
 
Pixalated
I feel I need to identify myself a bit so you will better understand my concerns. I am a has been photographer who shot film. I had a studio and shot weddings. I am now 85 and because I was involved in a wedding recently, took my PS Nikon and grabbed a few shots of the bride and groom and groomsmen at a time when others were not shooting. The shooters were
friends and family who had no concept of posing.
I would liked to have posted my shots, but groom would not give me permission.
I had some excellent training in wedding photography, charged more than the competion and for my day and did quite well.
I think the digital camera is a boon for folk who want pictures of family, kids in sports. That was not my point at all. Mine was about those who are selling their pictures in competition against people who are trying to make a living at
their trade are being undercut by the two two dollar shooters..
Regards,
Jon Boy

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Jan 2, 2012 12:30:13   #
counpsych
 
My husband often introduces me as a photographer and I quickly say that I just take pictures. I think there is a large difference and I am not ready to call myself a photographer.

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Jan 2, 2012 13:12:21   #
Pepper Loc: Planet Earth Country USA
 
Jon Boy wrote:
Pixalated
I feel I need to identify myself a bit so you will better understand my concerns. I am a has been photographer who shot film. I had a studio and shot weddings. I am now 85 and because I was involved in a wedding recently, took my PS Nikon and grabbed a few shots of the bride and groom and groomsmen at a time when others were not shooting. The shooters were
friends and family who had no concept of posing.
I would liked to have posted my shots, but groom would not give me permission.
I had some excellent training in wedding photography, charged more than the competion and for my day and did quite well.
I think the digital camera is a boon for folk who want pictures of family, kids in sports. That was not my point at all. Mine was about those who are selling their pictures in competition against people who are trying to make a living at
their trade are being undercut by the two two dollar shooters..
Regards,
Jon Boy
Pixalated br I feel I need to identify myself a bi... (show quote)


And just why is it that the guy out there selling his stuff for $2.00 is any less deserving of trying to make a living than anyone else. Maybe this guy has nothing and is just trying to work his way up the ladder. I have much more respect and admiration for the guy out there trying than those sitting home on the ars whining about how unfair the world is. I'm sorry Jon I truely don't mean to be unsympatetic and rude but it just seems to me that this is just one more attempt to undermine a persons freedom to pursue his dream. You may not like the road he/she travels but he/she has every right to make his/her journey in whatever way works for him/her. The quality of their work will make or break them in the end so let them at least give it a shot.

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Jan 2, 2012 13:29:25   #
ken4peace
 
marcomarks wrote:
Jon Boy wrote:
The day has arrived that everyone who has a digital point and shoot camera has immediately become a shooter and some others with even more complicated ones too.
I spoke with an excellent photographer who owns a studio and is in completion with some selling four by six prints for two dollars.
It is a sad day for those who have spent time and money to become professionals.


I can't say I disagree with you. My wife at times takes excellent crisp 14MP shots with her fully-automatic $139 Canon A2200 while I sometimes don't with my $1200 worth of dSLR equipment in the same situation. The difference is that she is a happy-go-lucky snap shooter who gets lucky with her shots from time to time and I work at composition and post-edit my work for cropping, lighting, color saturation, etc. I likely take a very good shot 10X more often than she does because of my experience and eye for creativity. She's a total amateur and I'm an advanced amateur with a little bit of pro work in the past, and she knows that and when it comes to something she really wants to document well, she insists that I do it instead of her.

When you want somebody to shoot an important event that will never happen again the same way, you want the best documentation of it possible. You want to end up with a lot of good shots in your hand to pick from and create a "storybook" of what happened by handpicking the best of the lot. A professional is likely to be the one to achieve that initial big pile of good shots for you, is most likely to have backup equipment in case of failure, is more likely to have a second shooter available, is more likely to make you comfortable that things are going well, and will guide participants through the photo staging. Uncle Joe with his dSLR from Target might have only shot 50 or 100 pictures of flowers and your Aunt Myrtle then 10 of the 100 might have come out well. Uncle Joe is free or almost free but he has no training in lighting, aperture, shutter speed, ISO or anything else so he is at the mercy of the camera's decision-making abilities. The professional is not, has shot thousands of photos and maybe even 10's of thousands, likely runs the cameras on manual or semi-auto to have better control, knows about lighting and indirect flash, etc. If the documentation of that event is very important, which one is likely to succeed for you?

You don't hire a veterinarian's assistant to do open heart surgery on you although he or she has assisted in open chest surgery on a Spaniel recently. You don't hire a high school kid to rebuild your car engine although he tunes his own. You don't hire your niece who took an art class in junior high to build an e-commerce website for you although she uses Facebook 100 times a day. You don't hire a Wendy's burger flipper to cater a business luncheon although both cook for a living. There are snapshooters who nervously hope they don't let you down with zero good shots, and there are true photographers who will create the best they can most of the time while relaxed and their hope at every event is to boost the amount of good shots they take from 75% to 85%.

When I got married 4 1/2 years ago, I had a friend take wedding photos for me who had owned and used a film SLR for years . I handed him my Panasonic FZ-30, set it fully-automatic, and told him to just go around the room and take a LOT of pictures of everything from a variety of angles so that I could have many, many shots to post-edit and compose via cropping. I was hoping for 150 shots at least and possibly 200. I even showed him how to change batteries and gave him two freshly charged spares although I knew it could do 200 shots on one battery. I trusted the camera to do an excellent job of exposing with auto fill flash like it always does. I trusted the image stabilization and flash sync to avoid handshake. I trusted the shooter to be able to compose with a zoom and let the auto-focus do it's thing.

He took 10 pictures total. In most of them, he closed the built in flash so it wouldn't interfere with the service or be intrusive to those he shot. So down went the shutter speed and image stabilization tried valiantly to save the day but it barely did. We got two shots of my wife and I standing on the platform beside each other at the end. One was somehow goofy and the other had my eyes closed. I had to try to cut my eyes out of one and put them in the other. It didn't quite work so I can't enlarge to 11X14 because it becomes obvious.

So my carefully laid plans of using a friend and rising above his amateur abilities with technology did NOT work because he found ways to override my plans and blow the whole thing. Then he thinks he did an excellent job.

So while it's true that the latest digital technology makes more people snap shooters than ever before, it doesn't make them experienced and creative good/excellent shooters. Nothing can do that except experience.
quote=Jon Boy The day has arrived that everyone w... (show quote)


One out of 2 marriages are failing. The days when marriage was for life is far behind us. The only thing that won't happen again is that it won't be to the same partner, and yes in some cases marriages do last. My best friend and his wife have been unhappily married for 40 years. Being married does not mean being happy. I am divorced and was never this happy when married. I know pro photographers like to spread the myth that marriage is forever so it will get them business, but it just ain't so.

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Jan 2, 2012 13:37:40   #
Pepper Loc: Planet Earth Country USA
 
One more comment I'd like to make about this. This isn't any different than the guy sitting on a corner or in a park playing his music for the nickles and dimes folks throw in his case. Is this guy who is giving his talent away for chump change really a threat to Faith Hill? I find it very confusing that a professional photographer would be so impacted by such competition. Maybe just maybe I've held the professional photographer in too much asteem maybe just anyone can indeed pick up a camera and compete. I must tell you however this certainly doesn't say much about the profession as a whole does it?

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Jan 2, 2012 14:11:28   #
pfredd
 
blacks2 wrote:
Yes, the digital camera revolution killed jobs of many professional photographers, I know a few of them who had to seek a new carrier. Not only that, the mom and dad camera stores are disappearing fast as they can not compete with Costco etc. What's funny is that some people posting on this side, like, I got my first DSLR today where can I sell my pictures and the show off their first shot which in my opinion is garbage, yet get more reviews and praises as some great looking image, you figure.


Why indeed do we reply more often to Newbies ? Is it our 'I know more than you do' ego, or some good samaritan echo? Does any newbie deserve our time and knowledge(?) when they are too lazy to read the instruction book?
Now an example of professional loss ——A semi-close relative, late first (and likely only) marriage hired advertised professional to shoot wedding. Photographer chosen because of gender, because she was a pro and because she was cheapest.
Her pix were atrocious in composition, exposure, lighting, focus, The proofs submitted without editing or cropping. The album of 8X10s were simply enlargements of the proofs,
Everyone lost, bride has not a photo record of 'Her Day' to proudly show to her family and weep over. The 'professional' lost some time, a customer, an opportunity to build a reputation. And, every true professional photg lost a little respect in the eyes of any public who sees that hack's album. .
Anyone want to talk about privacy invasion from cell phone cams, or about the money potential of going viral on U-tube?

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Jan 2, 2012 15:46:17   #
photobydmb Loc: Nashville, TN
 
This was actually a problem before digital. I was shooting professionally (weddings, on film) back in the 80's and had to constantly compete with the "photography 101" students, who all thought they were "professional" because they were enrolled in a class at the local community college.

I always told my potential clients that you get what you pay for. I once had a couple try get me to match the $200 price quote given to them by one of these "professional" students. I informed them that hiring someone with such little experience was risky. You only get ONE chance to shoot a wedding, and the risk was too great to trust those memories to a beginner.

Long story short, they hired the student.

Ahh... But a few months after the wedding I did hear from them. They wanted to know if I could "fix" the terrible pictures that their wedding "photographer" had taken. And I mean these were BAD. There was no fixing them. And they humbly admitted that I had been right about trusting their wedding pictures to an amateur.

These days taking good pictures is almost a no-brainer (I hate that term, but it fits). But it still takes a seasoned photographer (not necessarily a professional) to get GREAT photographs.

But the old rule still rings true... You get what you pay for.

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Jan 2, 2012 16:22:52   #
Jon Boy Loc: Missouri
 
Pepper
If what happens as I anticipate is going to, those two dollar a print shooters
who are advertising are going to be reported to the IRS to be investigated as to whether they are reporting their incomes from photography or not.
Personally, I don't see this an an infringement on their work. Fair is fair because the studio owner is paying taxes.
This month I will be sending estimated tax funds for my retirement and SSI.
What do they but two things are sure- death and taxes!
Regards.

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Jan 2, 2012 16:26:47   #
Pepper Loc: Planet Earth Country USA
 
Jon Boy wrote:
Pepper
If what happens as I anticipate is going to, those two dollar a print shooters
who are advertising are going to be reported to the IRS to be investigated as to whether they are reporting their incomes from photography or not.
Personally, I don't see this an an infringement on their work. Fair is fair because the studio owner is paying taxes.
This month I will be sending estimated tax funds for my retirement and SSI.
What do they but two things are sure- death and taxes!
Regards.
Pepper br If what happens as I anticipate is going... (show quote)


I certainly wouldn't argue that issue with you Jon, they should indeed pay their taxes.

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Jan 2, 2012 16:35:38   #
MWAC Loc: Somewhere East Of Crazy
 
There will always be people photography that undercut the going market rate. There is tons of reasons for it:

#1 - Gain experience and build a portfolio
#2 - Not enough confidence in their skill level
#3 - Don't understand Cost of Doing Business
#4 - Unrealistic Business Goals/Plans
#5 - Think being busy means being successful.

I'm sure there are tons more but that's just off the top of my head. While I fully support professional photographers and kind of understand what goes into running a successful photography business, blaming up and coming photographers who don't have a grasp on good business practices for the decline in our own business is just ... how to word this... asinine.

I've said it before in this thread, a experience, respected and established photographer should not be competing against an up-and-coming photographer in their established market. The skill level, knowledge and client base should not be inter-mingling. Saying she is losing business to a $2 print shoot would be like saying she is losing busines to a Wal-Mart portrait studio. There are two totally different markets and two totally differnet client bases.

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Jan 2, 2012 16:59:03   #
Roger Hicks Loc: Aquitaine
 
dmbimage wrote:
This was actually a problem before digital. I was shooting professionally (weddings, on film) back in the 80's and had to constantly compete with the "photography 101" students, who all thought they were "professional" because they were enrolled in a class at the local community college.

. . .

But the old rule still rings true... You get what you pay for.


Absolutely. It's just that each technical advance inspires more confidence in complete incompetents. They gain the totally mistaken impression that they can compete with someone who has the faintest idea what they are doing. And often, it IS only the faintest idea...

This is why I wrote the following advice to amateurs about shooting weddings, http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/ps%20weddings.html

It says, in effect, "Don't shoot weddings unless you can't get out of it. But if you can't, try this."

Cheers,

R.

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Jan 2, 2012 17:09:59   #
CaptainC Loc: Colorado, south of Denver
 
I understand Peppers point about people just starting out and working his way up the ladder.

The problem with the majority of those $2 shooters, to use the term, is that they are palming themselves off as professionals and what they deliver is often a pile of dung. They are using the public to practice on. Too many are frauds.

Now, if they spent a year of so attending classes, lighting workshops, submitting images for print critiques, joining local professional organizations, that foster good skill and good practices BEFORE charging anyone, I would agree that they have every right to enter the business. You can bet they do not pay taxes or collect sales tax or carry any insurance should you be injured while at one of their shoots.

I am one of several persons nationwide who evaluate photographers to shoot for an organization and the crap we see is truly unbelievable. Reviewing 15-20 applicants a week, I see the best of the industry and the dregs. I would say I see 10% really great work, 50% that is OK - certainly acceptable, and the remaining 40% is terrible. We accepted one person and soon were receiving complaints from the recipients of his images. The images he submitted for evaluation were pretty good, but what he was delivering was awful -really awful. Turns out the images he submitted for evaluation were done at a class/workshop. It was not his work! He was a fraud. We released him.

We had one person submit an image that comes as part of the windows operating system! Another fraud.

I personally do not fear them. I am WAY more expensive and use that to cull the bargain hunters. I am fearful for the public that hire these no-talent hacks. And that is exactly what a high percentage of them are. Note, i agree not all.

Holding yourself out as a wedding shooter and delivering photographic manure is a tragedy. I have seen those results - been asked if I could correct the work and when I told them of copyright issues and what I would have to charge, they were crushed.
I would have had to charge 5 times what she paid the photographer and even that would be no guarantee of success. She told me that she thought they would be great pictures because, "...he had a really expensive camera."

So yes. I have no love for the $2.00 shooter.

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