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How Gun Control Really Works
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Jan 23, 2013 13:17:32   #
TimS Loc: GA
 
This source puts it at 162,000.

http://dvc.org.uk/dunblane/ssaagreenwood.html

He also makes the case that the ban contributed to an increase in gun violence.

Reply
Jan 23, 2013 13:20:52   #
TimS Loc: GA
 
Gnslngr wrote:
A jury convicted Martin of murder. So I think we can be fairly confident in saying he was not acting in self defense, not within his rights as a property owner, but was in fact a cold blooded killer.


Yeah, nobody has ever been wrongly convicted - right? Although a jury convicted him of murder, he 'won' his appeal which downgraded it manslaughter - the same as one would get if they contributed to someone's death by accident.

Reply
Jan 23, 2013 13:22:42   #
Gnslngr
 
TimS wrote:
This source puts it at 162,000.

http://dvc.org.uk/dunblane/ssaagreenwood.html

He also makes the case that the ban contributed to an increase in gun violence.


Nope. He doesn't make any case. He merely says crime went up after the gun ban and fails to make a causal connection.

Reply
 
 
Jan 23, 2013 13:28:01   #
Gnslngr
 
TimS wrote:
Gnslngr wrote:
A jury convicted Martin of murder. So I think we can be fairly confident in saying he was not acting in self defense, not within his rights as a property owner, but was in fact a cold blooded killer.


Yeah, nobody has ever been wrongly convicted - right? Although a jury convicted him of murder, he 'won' his appeal which downgraded it manslaughter - the same as one would get if they contributed to someone's death by accident.


Later reduced to manslaughter because of his diminished mental capacity. In other words, another mental incompetent with a gun. His mental state made an intentional crime impossible to hold against him. The jury's verdict still being the best description of what really happened.

Reply
Jan 23, 2013 13:50:28   #
LARRYR. Loc: Saint Martinville, La.
 
Gnslngr wrote:
LARRYR. wrote:


would all anti-gun people Please post your phone number and home address, as many gun owner's had their's published
(with out their consent). I'm sure there are quite a few burglers who would love to know just where you live.
Many of us so call gun owners doesn't concider our homes as part of the open to all American boader, Thank You


Larry, what has this got to do with anything? You sound like you're off your meds.


Sorry, I seem to have forgotten to take my VIAGRA
this morning and I just can't seem to keep my mind
straight. The point I was getting to, is, if you rather not
own a gun because you wouldn't want to shoot some for
breaking and entering into your home, that's your right.
But if I decide that my life or any one in my family life
is in any danger, then I myself will not shoot to scare any
one, the only noise he or she that is in my house uninvited
will hear, is my gun going off safety. He or she has a choice
stay away from my house or take a chance I don't have
a gun, the choice is their's. So if you post your address they
wan't have to make that choice, they'll already know you
don't own a gun and they want get shot.

Reply
Jan 23, 2013 14:04:48   #
Gnslngr
 
LARRYR. wrote:

Sorry, I seem to have forgotten to take my VIAGRA
this morning and I just can't seem to keep my mind
straight. The point I was getting to, is, if you rather not
own a gun because you wouldn't want to shoot some for
breaking and entering into your home, that's your right.
But if I decide that my life or any one in my family life
is in any danger, then I myself will not shoot to scare any
one, the only noise he or she that is in my house uninvited
will hear, is my gun going off safety. He or she has a choice
stay away from my house or take a chance I don't have
a gun, the choice is their's. So if you post your address they
wan't have to make that choice, they'll already know you
don't own a gun and they want get shot.
br Sorry, I seem to have forgotten to take my VIA... (show quote)


First of all, great line about the Viagra. I'm gonna steal that and call it my own, okay?

Now.... Seriously, Larry, where do you live that there are a spate of vicious home invaders on every block? Doesn't a really good alarm system and safe room accomplish the same thing without the possibility of the homeowner getting killed?

I guess I just don't understand the need for a gun in today's society.

Reply
Jan 23, 2013 14:30:29   #
TimS Loc: GA
 
Gnslngr wrote:
TimS wrote:
Gnslngr wrote:
A jury convicted Martin of murder. So I think we can be fairly confident in saying he was not acting in self defense, not within his rights as a property owner, but was in fact a cold blooded killer.


Yeah, nobody has ever been wrongly convicted - right? Although a jury convicted him of murder, he 'won' his appeal which downgraded it manslaughter - the same as one would get if they contributed to someone's death by accident.


Later reduced to manslaughter because of his diminished mental capacity. In other words, another mental incompetent with a gun. His mental state made an intentional crime impossible to hold against him. The jury's verdict still being the best description of what really happened.
quote=TimS quote=Gnslngr A jury convicted Martin... (show quote)


I disagree. According to what I read on BBC, his mental state was such that he had an immense fear of people breaking into his house to the point that he felt his life was threatened regardless. Seems kinda fishy to me but I'm not a mental health professional. Either way, assuming that was correct, it would make it even less likely that he would 'lure' anyone to his house just so he could shoot them. Had he walked into town and shot somebody then his case of having a mental issue wouldn't stand.

Again, at the end of the day, a criminal was shot dead breaking into someone's house and I have a real hard time getting concerned about that or feeling any remorse for the victims or the deceased criminal's family.

Now, again from what I could find from UK websites, is that the two men had weapons (not necessarily firearms) that could inflict deadly bodily harm. Mr. Martin fired once an that made them turn around and hightail it out of there. He pumped his shotgun and loaded another casing and fired. He pumped a third time and fired a third time.

He was convicted because the jury felt that he should not have fired the second or third shots because the burglers were facing the door and, presumedly, attempting to exit the house.

If he had not been armed, there is a possibility (we don't know how great or small) that Mr. Martin would have been murdered during that robbery. However, knowing that the burglers had weapons, its not a stretch to assume it is more likely than not that they would have at least injured or killed Mr. Martin.

Therefore, this is an example of how a gun likely saved the life of an innocent homeowner. Had he complied with the law, he would have been left defenseless against two armed thugs.

As it is now, Mr. Martin is alive and one thug with a rap sheet of 29 previous arrests is dead. As the saying goes, better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Reply
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Jan 23, 2013 15:00:08   #
TimS Loc: GA
 
Gnslngr wrote:
LARRYR. wrote:

Sorry, I seem to have forgotten to take my VIAGRA
this morning and I just can't seem to keep my mind
straight. The point I was getting to, is, if you rather not
own a gun because you wouldn't want to shoot some for
breaking and entering into your home, that's your right.
But if I decide that my life or any one in my family life
is in any danger, then I myself will not shoot to scare any
one, the only noise he or she that is in my house uninvited
will hear, is my gun going off safety. He or she has a choice
stay away from my house or take a chance I don't have
a gun, the choice is their's. So if you post your address they
wan't have to make that choice, they'll already know you
don't own a gun and they want get shot.
br Sorry, I seem to have forgotten to take my VIA... (show quote)


First of all, great line about the Viagra. I'm gonna steal that and call it my own, okay?

Now.... Seriously, Larry, where do you live that there are a spate of vicious home invaders on every block? Doesn't a really good alarm system and safe room accomplish the same thing without the possibility of the homeowner getting killed?

I guess I just don't understand the need for a gun in today's society.
quote=LARRYR. br Sorry, I seem to have forgotten... (show quote)


Just because a home invasion doesn't happen every other week in pne's neighborhood, does not mean that they are impossible.

Why does someone need a gun in this society? Because there are bad people out there that want to harm others in this society. Although the probability of being involved in a violent crime are, thankfully, low in the USA, they still exist. However, ours is a society with violent, brutal criminals.

Will I be a victim of a violent crime in my lifetime? Statistically speaking, no. But statistically speaking, it's also highly unlikely that my house will burn down yet I still maintain my smoke detectors. The reason is that I'd rather have them and not need them than to not have them and need them.

So I'm not sure what sort of utopian society you live in where gang members only assault rival gang members and criminals only break into homes in high crime areas of the city but for the rest of us that do not live in a crime-free society, we want to be able to make that choice ourself.

Reply
Jan 23, 2013 15:05:54   #
imntrt1 Loc: St. Louis
 
Raider Fan wrote:
You're sound asleep when you hear a thump outside your bedroom door.
Half-awake, and nearly paralyzed with fear, you hear muffled whispers.

At least two people have broken into your house and are moving your way.

With your heart pumping, you reach down beside your bed and pick up your shotgun.

You rack a shell into the chamber, then inch toward the door and open it.

In the darkness, you make out two shadows.

One holds something that looks like a crowbar.

When the intruder brandishes it as if to strike, you raise the shotgun and fire.

The blast knocks both thugs to the floor.

One writhes and screams while the second man crawls to the front door and lurches outside.

As you pick up the telephone to call police, you know you're in trouble.

In your country, most guns were outlawed years before, and the few that are privately owned are so stringently regulated as to make them useless..

Yours was never registered.

Police arrive and inform you that the second burglar has died.

They arrest you for First Degree Murder and Illegal Possession of a Firearm.

When you talk to your attorney, he tells you not to worry: authorities will probably plea the case down to manslaughter.

"What kind of sentence will I get?" you ask.

"Only ten-to-twelve years," he replies, as if that's nothing.

"Behave yourself, and you'll be out in seven."

The next day, the shooting is the lead story in the local newspaper. Somehow, you're portrayed as an eccentric vigilante while the two men you shot are represented as choirboys.

Their friends and relatives can't find an unkind word to say about them..

Buried deep down in the article, authorities acknowledge that both "victims" have been arrested numerous times.

But the next day's headline says it all:
"Lovable Rogue Son Didn't Deserve to Die."

The thieves have been transformed from career criminals into Robin Hood-type pranksters..

As the days wear on, the story takes wing.

The national media picks it up, then the international media.

The surviving burglar has become a folk hero.

Your attorney says the thief is preparing to sue you, and he'll probably win.

The media publishes reports that your home has been burglarized several times in the past and that you've been critical of local police for their lack of effort in apprehending the suspects.

After the last break-in, you told your neighbor that you would be prepared next time.

The District Attorney uses this to allege that you were lying in wait for the burglars.

A few months later, you go to trial.

The charges haven't been reduced, as your lawyer had so confidently predicted.

When you take the stand, your anger at the injustice of it all works against you..

Prosecutors paint a picture of you as a mean, vengeful man.

It doesn't take long for the jury to convict you of all charges.

The judge sentences you to life in prison.

This case really happened.

On August 22, 1999, Tony Martin of Emneth, Norfolk , England , killed one burglar and wounded a second.

In April, 2000, he was convicted and is now serving a life term...

How did it become a crime to defend one's own life in the once great British Empire ?

It started with the Pistols Act of 1903.

This seemingly reasonable law forbade selling pistols to minors or felons and established that handgun sales were to be made only to those who had a license.
The Firearms Act of 1920 expanded licensing to include not only handguns but all firearms except shotguns..

Later laws passed in 1953 and 1967 outlawed the carrying of any weapon by private citizens and mandated the registration of all shotguns.

Momentum for total handgun confiscation began in earnest after the Hungerfordmass shooting in 1987.

Michael Ryan, a mentally disturbed man with a Kalashnikov rifle, walked down the streets shooting everyone he saw.

When the smoke cleared, 17 people were dead.

The British public, already de-sensitized by eighty years of "gun control", demanded even tougher restrictions.
(The seizure of all privately owned handguns was the objective even though Ryan used a rifle.)

Nine years later, at Dunblane , Scotland , Thomas Hamilton used a semi-automatic weapon to murder 16 children and a teacher at a public school.

For many years, the media had portrayed all gun owners as mentally unstable, or worse, criminals.
Now the press had a real kook with which to beat up law-abiding gun owners.
Day after day, week after week, the media gave up all pretense of objectivity and demanded a total ban on all handguns.
The Dunblane Inquiry, a few months later, sealed the fate of the few sidearms still owned by private citizens.

During the years in which the British government incrementally took away most gun rights, the notion that a citizen had the right to armed self-defense came to be seen as vigilantism.
Authorities refused to grant gun licenses to people who were threatened, claiming that self-defense was no longer considered a reason to own a gun.
Citizens who shot burglars or robbers or rapists were charged while the real criminals were released.

Indeed, after the Martin shooting, a police spokesman was quoted as saying,
"We cannot have people take the law into their own hands."

All of Martin's neighbors had been robbed numerous times,
and several elderly people were severely injured in beatings by young thugs who had no fear of the consequences.
Martin himself, a collector of antiques, had seen most of his collection trashed or stolen by burglars.

When the Dunblane Inquiry ended, citizens who owned handguns were given three months to turn them over to local authorities.

Being good British subjects, most people obeyed the law.
The few who didn't were visited by police and threatened with ten-year prison sentences if they didn't comply.

Police later bragged that they'd taken nearly 200,000 handguns from private citizens.

How did the authorities know who had handguns?
The guns had been registered and licensed.
Kind of like cars. Sound familiar?

WAKE UP AMERICA ; THIS IS WHY OUR FOUNDING FATHERS PUT THE SECOND AMENDMENT IN OUR CONSTITUTION.

"...It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds.."
--Samuel Adams

If you think this is important, please forward to everyone you know.

You had better wake up, because Obama is doing this very same thing, over here, if he can get it done.

And there are stupid people in Congress and on the street that will go right along with him.

The UN Small Arms Treaty that Hilary is negotiating would take away our 2nd Amendment rights.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just remember - the reason the Japanese didn't invade the USA is because they knew that most
of the citizens were armed
You're sound asleep when you hear a thump outside ... (show quote)


We just had a Missouri Congresswoman propose legislation to require anyone with a child in school to register as a firearm owner. A back door attempt at gun registration if ever I saw one.

Reply
Jan 23, 2013 15:28:00   #
LARRYR. Loc: Saint Martinville, La.
 
Gnslngr wrote:
LARRYR. wrote:

Sorry, I seem to have forgotten to take my VIAGRA
this morning and I just can't seem to keep my mind
straight. The point I was getting to, is, if you rather not
own a gun because you wouldn't want to shoot some for
breaking and entering into your home, that's your right.
But if I decide that my life or any one in my family life
is in any danger, then I myself will not shoot to scare any
one, the only noise he or she that is in my house uninvited
will hear, is my gun going off safety. He or she has a choice
stay away from my house or take a chance I don't have
a gun, the choice is their's. So if you post your address they
wan't have to make that choice, they'll already know you
don't own a gun and they want get shot.
br Sorry, I seem to have forgotten to take my VIA... (show quote)


First of all, great line about the Viagra. I'm gonna steal that and call it my own, okay?

Now.... Seriously, Larry, where do you live that there are a spate of vicious home invaders on every block? Doesn't a really good alarm system and safe room accomplish the same thing without the possibility of the homeowner getting killed?

I guess I just don't understand the need for a gun in today's society.
quote=LARRYR. br Sorry, I seem to have forgotten... (show quote)


My friend, all I can say is turn off the VIEW and Chris
Matthew and start watching the news. It doesn't have
to be Fox, just besure it's news. What ever else I
tell you want matter any way or change your mind
would it? Have a safe day my friend nd I hope your
alarm works as good as my 1911, yours my scare
him but mine's will make him sh** if nothing else.

Reply
Jan 23, 2013 15:32:41   #
TimS Loc: GA
 
I think I need to just ignore all future posts in this thread. It's pretty interesting seeing how other people think (why need guns in such a benevolent, crime-free society) so much so that I think my head is gonna explode. Although its been - interesting - discussing this, I have to take my kid to taekwondo shortly and I have to work tomorrow. So...have fun singing Cumbya in your utopian society. Peace out.

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Jan 23, 2013 15:45:57   #
kfpierce
 
There was no U.S. Airforce in WWII

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Jan 23, 2013 16:07:01   #
Gnslngr
 
TimS wrote:
I think I need to just ignore all future posts in this thread. It's pretty interesting seeing how other people think (why need guns in such a benevolent, crime-free society) so much so that I think my head is gonna explode. Although its been - interesting - discussing this, I have to take my kid to taekwondo shortly and I have to work tomorrow. So...have fun singing Cumbya in your utopian society. Peace out.


This is the kind of ridiculous nonsense that wingnuts believe about those of us on the opposite side. I don't live in a utopian society, but both of the above posters seem to have missed the fact that I posted that I had a very good home security system and a safe room. If intruders came in, there is zero chance I or my family would be harmed.

Seems much safer than everyone lurking around with a pistol. Someone, usually an innocent, always gets hurt. :thumbup:

Reply
Jan 23, 2013 16:34:36   #
Raider Fan Loc: Lake County, IL.
 
Gnslngr wrote:
Mr. Martin's story is this: He lay in wait for burglars, got them to get in close range and waited until their back was turned to kill one of them. His license to own and operate a gun had been revoked, as well. The jury was instructed that he would be not guilty if he was well and truly protecting himself, and that jury found him guilty of murder.

The rest of the screed is equally removed from the truth. And if Raider Fan had ever read the UN Small Arms Treaty he would realize that it has nothing to do with our 2nd amendment rights.

When Raider Fan stops boxing shadows (and I know that's a hard thing to do because when you box shadows, you always win) and decides to become informed, he'll be a better citizen and he'll be happier. I wish him well on that journey. :thumbup:
Mr. Martin's story is this: He lay in wait for bu... (show quote)


It must be nice to pontificate all day long about other people!!

Reply
Jan 23, 2013 16:39:46   #
Gnslngr
 
Raider Fan wrote:
It must be nice to pontificate all day long about other people!!


I'm not pontificating. I said you were wrong about, for instance, the UN Small Arms Treaty. You ARE wrong about that. Instead of whining that you don't like my tone, go and read it so you won't sound like a moron when you bring it up. :thumbup:

Oh....you're welcome.

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