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I guess I'm done with Trump!
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Feb 14, 2024 12:34:57   #
RixPix Loc: Miami, Florida
 
Longshadow wrote:
We basically have two choices:
Bad and worse...


Not exactly correct. We do have to choose from
1. tyranny and an end of our world dominance from Trump
2. Keeping the United States as a beacon of liberty for the world.

It is just that simple. Trump's now obvious ties and support of the tyrannical goals of Putin are now quite clear.

Reply
Feb 14, 2024 12:37:45   #
DennyT Loc: Central Missouri woods
 
Blurryeyed wrote:
I don't put any stock into leftwing clickbait BS, which is exactly what your linked article is.


Wow !! You call the Economist “ left wing clicks baid!!!!

Reply
Feb 14, 2024 12:38:58   #
btbg
 
Bison Bud wrote:
First off, I'm a registered Independent that voted for Trump both times. I thought he did a great job while in office and we agreed on most policies and politics. However, I did feel that he got a bit crazy after losing the second election and I really have never cared for his self centered, self serving personality. Anyway, after recent events, I am done with him. His recent statements that he would not protect our NATO allies that didn't pay their part was way over the top! He even went so far as to say that he would encourage Russia to do "Whatever the Hell they want!" While I do agree that our NATO allies need to take a more active role and meet their obligations, this is not the way to approach that situation and this pretty much alienates our allies to the point of a possible end to NATO. At the very least it severely weakens it going forward, especially if he gets re-elected. Frankly, we need all the friends we can get, especially in Europe and the Middle east and an end for NATO would mean losing some very strategic bases and allies over there as well as embolden Putin's Russia. Geese, we are close enough to WWIII as it is and this man does not need to be our Commander and Chief again! He will under no circumstance get my vote again and I sincerely hope that others feel the same.
First off, I'm a registered Independent that voted... (show quote)


You are not making any sense. If you agree with most of Trump's policy decisions it means that you disagree with Biden.
If you agree that many NATO nations are not paying their fair share then it makes sense to put pressure on them to pony up. That's how he got them to pay some of what they were supposed to pay the last time he was in office. Why on earth should we honor our commitment to them if they refuse to pay what they have promised? Treaties are supposed to be followed by all sides. Instead for years and years they have failed in their obligations and we have repeatedly bailed them out.

We currently have more than 37 trillion in national debt, why should we pay to protect countries that are not paying to defend themselves?

Are you seriously going to vote for someone who is not mentally competent and supports bad policy just because you don't like Trump's style. Nothing like cutting off your nose to spite your face. You need to seriously rethink your position.

Reply
 
 
Feb 14, 2024 12:41:35   #
btbg
 


You will note that there are an awful lot of countries that are not even close to paying their promised amount.

Reply
Feb 14, 2024 12:41:39   #
Frank T Loc: New York, NY
 
Our MAGA friends might have forgotten but, the only time Article 5 of the NATO treaty was invoked was on September 11th, when NATO nations came to our assistance after we were attacked.

Reply
Feb 14, 2024 12:46:30   #
btbg
 
DennyT wrote:
We spend 2.7% or soon will of our gdp on defense BUT that is world wide.

https://www.defense.gov/Multimedia/Photos/igphoto/2002099941/


while eu countries spend the great majority if not nearly all their budget on their Europe’s defense .
So the idea Eu is freeloading on America bus totally false


I see that you didn't bother to even look at the chart that was provided. We spend 3.49 percent and over half of the NATO countries spend far less than 2 percent. As to our total being world wide, there's is also supposed to be world wide. They are supposed to support us when we are in a war, such as Iraq or Afghanistan.

Even if they were to pay the full 2 percent we are still footing most of the bill and taking most of the risk. Shoot, the latest round of spending on Ukraine, which isn't even part of NATO that just passed in the senate is 60 billion. Doubt if it will pass in the house, nonetheless, that is far more than anyone else is paying, so, yes the EU is absolutely freeloading. They aren't keeping their commitment, that's on them. Trump is just pointing out the facts.

Just because you have convinced yourself that Trump is wrong doesn't make it so. Just look at the chart that was provided.

Reply
Feb 14, 2024 13:07:07   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
DennyT wrote:
We spend 2.7% or soon will of our gdp on defense BUT that is world wide.

https://www.defense.gov/Multimedia/Photos/igphoto/2002099941/


while eu countries spend the great majority if not nearly all their budget on their Europe’s defense .
So the idea Eu is freeloading on America bus totally false

NATO and world wide are two different subjects.....

Reply
 
 
Feb 14, 2024 13:43:55   #
Blurryeyed Loc: NC Mountains.
 
Ah Heck! Let's just go with Slo after all he is doing such a good job leading the country down into the sewer.

Reply
Feb 14, 2024 15:37:34   #
Bison Bud
 
btbg wrote:
You are not making any sense. If you agree with most of Trump's policy decisions it means that you disagree with Biden.
If you agree that many NATO nations are not paying their fair share then it makes sense to put pressure on them to pony up. That's how he got them to pay some of what they were supposed to pay the last time he was in office. Why on earth should we honor our commitment to them if they refuse to pay what they have promised? Treaties are supposed to be followed by all sides. Instead for years and years they have failed in their obligations and we have repeatedly bailed them out.

We currently have more than 37 trillion in national debt, why should we pay to protect countries that are not paying to defend themselves?

Are you seriously going to vote for someone who is not mentally competent and supports bad policy just because you don't like Trump's style. Nothing like cutting off your nose to spite your face. You need to seriously rethink your position.
You are not making any sense. If you agree with mo... (show quote)


While I do indeed agree that all NATO countries should pay and do their part, Trump's statements were still way over the top and there are better ways to address this problem rather than telling the entire world that we will not back our obligations to our NATO allies, especially that he would encourage Russia to do "whatever the hell they want" if they don't pay up. Trump may have been trying to make a point, but literally blew it with his over aggressive attitude and at least in my opinion he will pay a heavy price for it. If nothing else, he won't ever get my vote again and Independents like me are important if he really wants to win in November and I seriously doubt that I'm the only one that feels this way. I can only hope that Trump's only remaining competitor will somehow win the Republican nomination or the Democrats find a better candidate than Biden. I guess we will see one way or another, but this was the last straw for me and I'm done with Trump. I hope that others feel the same!

Reply
Feb 14, 2024 15:51:49   #
DennyT Loc: Central Missouri woods
 
Longshadow wrote:
NATO and world wide are two different subjects.....


The point was that trump portrayed it as we defending eu because they don’t down 2% when only spend a bit more than that in the entire world. If you want to gripe, then complain about the hundreds of military installation around the world -

Reply
Feb 14, 2024 15:53:10   #
DennyT Loc: Central Missouri woods
 
btbg wrote:
I see that you didn't bother to even look at the chart that was provided. We spend 3.49 percent and over half of the NATO countries spend far less than 2 percent. As to our total being world wide, there's is also supposed to be world wide. They are supposed to support us when we are in a war, such as Iraq or Afghanistan.

Even if they were to pay the full 2 percent we are still footing most of the bill and taking most of the risk. Shoot, the latest round of spending on Ukraine, which isn't even part of NATO that just passed in the senate is 60 billion. Doubt if it will pass in the house, nonetheless, that is far more than anyone else is paying, so, yes the EU is absolutely freeloading. They aren't keeping their commitment, that's on them. Trump is just pointing out the facts.

Just because you have convinced yourself that Trump is wrong doesn't make it so. Just look at the chart that was provided.
I see that you didn't bother to even look at the c... (show quote)


And you apparently didn’t even read what I said

“ We spend 2.7% or soon will of our gdp

Reply
 
 
Feb 14, 2024 16:03:10   #
btbg
 
DennyT wrote:
And you apparently didn’t even read what I said

“ We spend 2.7% or soon will of our gdp


You aparently cant read. The chart said 3.49 percent. Big difference.

Reply
Feb 14, 2024 16:25:58   #
DennyT Loc: Central Missouri woods
 
btbg wrote:
You aparently cant read. The chart said 3.49 percent. Big difference.


Nice try but a strike none the less.
The point us we are not spending 2 % in defense of Europe either.

We are not carrying the load for eu defense. Pure bs .. nothing but trump red meat for the MAGA cult.

Reply
Feb 14, 2024 16:53:36   #
btbg
 
DennyT wrote:
Nice try but a strike none the less.


So you still havent bothered to look at the chart that was provided. Thats on you. Not my problem.

Reply
Feb 14, 2024 18:31:57   #
Canisdirus
 
Bison Bud wrote:
First off, I'm a registered Independent that voted for Trump both times. I thought he did a great job while in office and we agreed on most policies and politics. However, I did feel that he got a bit crazy after losing the second election and I really have never cared for his self centered, self serving personality. Anyway, after recent events, I am done with him. His recent statements that he would not protect our NATO allies that didn't pay their part was way over the top! He even went so far as to say that he would encourage Russia to do "Whatever the Hell they want!" While I do agree that our NATO allies need to take a more active role and meet their obligations, this is not the way to approach that situation and this pretty much alienates our allies to the point of a possible end to NATO. At the very least it severely weakens it going forward, especially if he gets re-elected. Frankly, we need all the friends we can get, especially in Europe and the Middle east and an end for NATO would mean losing some very strategic bases and allies over there as well as embolden Putin's Russia. Geese, we are close enough to WWIII as it is and this man does not need to be our Commander and Chief again! He will under no circumstance get my vote again and I sincerely hope that others feel the same.
First off, I'm a registered Independent that voted... (show quote)


That's because whatever source you read is out of context.

Trump wants NATO to pay their bills...which they should...but have been stubbornly delinquent.

Trump was making a negotiating point...you don't pay...you don't get to call NATO...pretty simple.

And the NATO countries got the message...and started to pay more of their own way...as they should.

All I saw was...success.

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