Boeing - Old Habits are Hard to Break (Page 2): :sm24:...

jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY

CaltechNerd wrote:

When McDonald Douglas management took over Boeing they made sure that profits were king and integrity/good engineering an afterthought.

jerryc41 Loc: Catskill Mts of NY

AirWalter wrote:

Everyone knows you don't like aircraft Jerry and y... (show quote)

Not true. I always have loved both planes and flying. When airlines started cutting back on services and charging more for less, and when passengers started fistfights in the aisles, I decided it was time to stop flying. Still, if I had to take a long trip, I wouldn't hesitate to take a plane. Big airlines and plane manufacturers have a long history of valuing profit over lives.

BebuLamar

jerryc41 wrote:

Not true. I always have loved both planes and flying. When airlines started cutting back on services and charging more for less, and when passengers started fistfights in the aisles, I decided it was time to stop flying. Still, if I had to take a long trip, I wouldn't hesitate to take a plane. Big airlines and plane manufacturers have a long history of valuing profit over lives.

I guess they value profit over lives because non of the guys so far went to jail for accidents killing people nor any of them had to pay settlement out of their own pocket. The worst is that they lose their job but then low profit could cause them to lose their job too.

CaltechNerd Loc: Whittier, CA, USA

BebuLamar wrote:

I guess they value profit over lives because non of the guys so far went to jail for accidents killing people nor any of them had to pay settlement out of their own pocket. The worst is that they lose their job but then low profit could cause them to lose their job too.

This is the tragic flaw in US justice. In Germany, when Volkswagen marketed a diesel car that changed it's settings when tested to fake it's pollution, the EXECUTIVES went on trial. Corporations don't kill people, executives do. US justice only punishes the corporation, a mindless legal fiction. But it's the actual people who make decisions and the people are not held responsible. From the 737 Max to the Challenger astronauts being murdered by launching the flight when every knowledgeable party said it wasn't even remotely safe, we see people go free with no consequences.

It's time for a change.

Flyerace Loc: Mt Pleasant, WI

We had a friend who was a test pilot for Boeing. He was one of the first to fly any new plane or one with significant modifications. He got in the planes every time and expected he would return to earth in one living piece.

He believed in the product and the company. He even built his own plane when he retired. Some of these problems that cause plane crashes are sophisticated and random. I'm not afraid to fly, I'm afraid of the passengers. Some are downright crazy and don't belong in public.

TheShoe Loc: Lacey, WA

BebuLamar wrote:

I knew about the 3 accidents which the NTSB couldn't determine the cause of the first 2 because everyone was killed although they did test the suspected servo valve. The third one the pilot could recover and they tested the valve again after freezing it and it malfunctioned. I didn't know about Boeing knew why but blamed it on the pilot or weather.

That was more than likely required by their insurance company. It is natural for them to not want their client to accept blame until it is attributed by the investigation.

Amielee Loc: Eastern Washington State

KillroyII wrote:

They have had friends in high places… don’t know how much that helps them in avoiding blame for crashes/deaths but it sure helps them in the military procurements. You can win on a competitive bid for the military then have it overturned… after the award is announced… with influential people involved in pressuring the military… and have the contract taken away from you.

Military contracts and civil contracts are two very different things, Civil involves many different airlines and expense is a very important consideration. Airlines want the best planes they can get at the lowest cost. Military wants the best planes they can get but cost overruns are acceptable. Governments will pay whatever it takes to get what they want. Airlines will not. When McDonald Douglas bought Boeing with Boeings money they put MD in charge of the civil business and Boeing in charge of Military business the results should have been obvious.

Scruples Loc: Brooklyn, New York

jerryc41 wrote:

I'm sure you've heard about how Boeing tried to save money……

I’m learning to pilot a single prop plane. It is a unique experience for a 62 year old grumpy coot. By the time I grade up to a jet plane or a fighter I’ll be at least 250 years old but I’ll hang in there. I can’t understand the overwhelming desire of manufacturers to improve what works. Why does anyone wish to build bigger and better? If it works, leave it alone. I have had lessons in a Piper Cherokee. It is a nice plane but I’m not going to be piloting a Tomcat or MiG-29

BebuLamar

Scruples wrote:

Why does anyone wish to build bigger and better?

For the money. Manufacturers build products for money whether it's bigger and better or smaller and worse they all for the money.

Scruples Loc: Brooklyn, New York

I understand what you mean. But I rarely buy stuff. If I buy too much stuff my wife will return it or my children will have a lawn sale. LOL!

Amielee Loc: Eastern Washington State

Scruples wrote:

I’m learning to pilot a single prop plane. It is a unique experience for a 62 year old grumpy coot. By the time I grade up to a jet plane or a fighter I’ll be at least 250 years old but I’ll hang in there. I can’t understand the overwhelming desire of manufacturers to improve what works. Why does anyone wish to build bigger and better? If it works, leave it alone. I have had lessons in a Piper Cherokee. It is a nice plane but I’m not going to be piloting a Tomcat or MiG-29

Good on you Scruples, keep it up. I learned to fly at 16, went into the Army in 1952 and did not fly for about 30 years, wife thought it took food off the table. Started again at 50. Do not have the hours I should have but do not regret a single minute of it. I had a Cherokee 180 and flew all over in it. Had to sell it when I flunk my physical.

Bmarsh Loc: Bellaire, MI

I learned to fly at 18, just before college. Quickly got my commercial and CFI. Did some crop dusting but saw enough starving wnnabes trying to get airline jobs that I never wanted to go that route. Flew until age 74 when heart problems took over. I miss flying, but ya gotta get out sometime. Last plane was a V-tail Bonanza... the Cadillac of the single engines (in its day)

CaltechNerd Loc: Whittier, CA, USA

Flyerace wrote:

We had a friend who was a test pilot for Boeing. H... (show quote)

All of this is true. I believed in the company too, went out of my way to fly in Boeing planes. My time there convinced me it was an honorable competent company. And it was, at that time.

AND, the 737 Max knowingly violated engineering principles. One retired engineer said it looked like it was designed by monkeys. To accommodate the new, larger, heavier, clearly better engines, they had to change the position of the engines, lower and further forward. That destroyed the balance of the plane. It needed to be rethought. Instead, they installed a computer system that would over-ride the pilot and "correct" the attitude of the plane. The new system depended on a single sensor. All sensors can fail. The new system was not thoroughly explained to any pilots because the Boeing CEO worried that such a change might concern pilots which could slow sales. And likewise, pilots never flew a simulator with the new flight characteristics and the override because reprogramming simulators and retraining pilots costs a lot of money and that dampens sales.

Scruples Loc: Brooklyn, New York

Amielee wrote:

Good on you Scruples, keep it up. I learned to fly at 16, went into the Army in 1952 and did not fly for about 30 years, wife thought it took food off the table. Started again at 50. Do not have the hours I should have but do not regret a single minute of it. I had a Cherokee 180 and flew all over in it. Had to sell it when I flunk my physical.

Sorry to hear that. I bet you could teach a bunch of young pups to fly if you had an aviation curriculum for high schoolers.

fantom Loc: Colorado

JFCoupe wrote:

I am not a Boeing expert or even an ex-employee bu... (show quote)