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Does dynamic range (DR) affect noise?
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Dec 30, 2022 08:27:25   #
dpullum Loc: Tampa Florida
 
photon-collector wrote:
It's all very simple, really. You push the first valve down....the music goes round and round...me or my oh...and it comes out here.


Yes, with out noise.

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Dec 30, 2022 08:32:13   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
dpullum wrote:
And.... Do not forget the new AI de-noise programs which work magic making many noise questions historic and moot... abstract or purely academic.

There is academic and then there is reality.

Pragmatic photographers have four noise options - overlook it, fix it with post processing, capture the image differently or get a better camera. I have done them all.

PS: I forgot #5 - don't take the picture.

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Dec 30, 2022 09:37:59   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
Ysarex wrote:
So this is fundamentally incorrect. DR is a function of the sensor and not the bit depth of the ADC.

Here's a link to PhotonstoPhotos: https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D850_12(12RawM),Nikon%20D850(14)

You can see there that the DR range for a D850 is fundamentally unchanged between 14 and 12 bit. Certainly there is no lost 2 stops due to the bit depth change.

Think of it this way: You have two staircases between two floors. They both span the same total distance (DR determined by the sensor). One staircase has more stairs closer together (14 bit) the other staircase has fewer stairs farther apart (12 bit). You're spanning the same distance with both staircases (sensor DR determined) and you'll see that's the case with the D850 in either 12 or 14 bit. The 14 bit version encodes the data more discreetly while the 12 bit version encodes the data less discreetly. What we don't do is saw of the bottom of the 12 bit staircase.

There are of course consequences to less steps farther apart in the 12 bit version and you can expect that less data will produce a negative result. However it's not at all correct to say that the bottom two stops in the 14 bit version simply don't exist in the 12 bit version.
So this is fundamentally incorrect. DR is a functi... (show quote)


Exactly, an 8 bit JPEG can have just as much dynamic range but those steps are much further apart. You’ll still get the same pure whites and blacks. It’s the smooth gradations and color changes that you lose.

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Dec 30, 2022 10:43:28   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
SuperflyTNT wrote:
Exactly, an 8 bit JPEG can have just as much dynamic range but those steps are much further apart. You’ll still get the same pure whites and blacks. It’s the smooth gradations and color changes that you lose.

It’s the “steps are much further apart” that’s the fly in the ointment. You can cover from black to white but it’s hard to overcome the banding.

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Dec 30, 2022 10:52:02   #
billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
 
selmslie wrote:
Or are noise and DR both affected by something else?

We know that DR drops as ISO is increased. Both DxO and Photons to Photons show this graphically. They just don't show the same DR values.

We also know that noise becomes more visible when we increase the ISO. But that's because we can use less exposure when we use higher ISO values.

To answer the original question I did an experiment using a Nikon Z7. I recorded the same low light scene at ISO 6400 by setting the raw bit depth to 12 and 14. This would produce some visible noise and two different raw dynamic ranges. Both images used the same aperture, shutter speed and white balance.

The 12-bit capture loses two stops of potential shadow recovery when compared to the 14-bit capture. It also calls for more careful exposure - to the right (ETTR).

The two images will appear in my next post. Both images were created in Capture One 23 with all settings at their default values. They are saved at 24MP (6000x4000) so they can be compared to other 24MP results.

If noise were driven by DR then we should also see a noticeable increase in noise. That did not happen.
Or are noise and DR both affected by something els... (show quote)


Noise is dependent on iso, the higher your iso, the higher the noise with HDR, the lower the iso, the less the noise with HDR

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Dec 30, 2022 10:54:46   #
yorkiebyte Loc: Scottsdale, AZ/Bandon by the Sea, OR
 
User ID wrote:
Hhmmmnnnnnnn ....

I think I will withhold the zinger until about page 10.


Well, crap. NOW I gotta' stay with this thread ForAhWhile. The zinger will be more interestin'!

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Dec 30, 2022 11:18:08   #
bclaff Loc: Sherborn, MA (18mi SW of Boston)
 
TriX wrote:
...

I admit that I am still struggling with the idea that the resolution or DR of an ideal 14 bit A/D is 14.5 bits. In fact, with all the A/Ds I’m familiar with, we usually consider it to be n-.5 because of the uncertainty of the LSB, and I cannot find a reference where the resolution is ideally anything other than n. ... Can you comment and help me understand or provide a reference please?

Here's what I wrote at PhotonsToPhotos Quantization Error in Practice
Jack Hogan came to the same conclusion using a different approach.
We make no assumption about LSB imprecision.
Remember, we're not talking about 1 sample but the standard deviation from many samples.

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Dec 30, 2022 11:26:55   #
SuperflyTNT Loc: Manassas VA
 
selmslie wrote:
It’s the “steps are much further apart” that’s the fly in the ointment. You can cover from black to white but it’s hard to overcome the banding.


Which is why i shoot 14 bit raw.

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Dec 30, 2022 11:38:00   #
PHRubin Loc: Nashville TN USA
 
This got far from the original question which appears backwards. Doesn't noise affect dynamic range, not the other way around?

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Dec 30, 2022 12:33:47   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
PHRubin wrote:
This got far from the original question which appears backwards. Doesn't noise affect dynamic range, not the other way around?


My opinion is you’re correct - noise does affect DR because it sets the lower boundary. Noise at the bottom, setting the MSB at the top.

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Dec 30, 2022 12:57:03   #
selmslie Loc: Fernandina Beach, FL, USA
 
PHRubin wrote:
This got far from the original question which appears backwards. Doesn't noise affect dynamic range, not the other way around?

Yes. Since it is one of the values used to calculate DR noise is the independent variable and DR is the dependent variable. That’s where I was heading when I posted the original question.

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Dec 30, 2022 13:54:22   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
bclaff wrote:
Here's what I wrote at PhotonsToPhotos Quantization Error in Practice
Jack Hogan came to the same conclusion using a different approach.
We make no assumption about LSB imprecision.
Remember, we're not talking about 1 sample but the standard deviation from many samples.


Thanks - that’s exactly what I’d expect - once you pass .6 LSB, the quantization error is essentially 0, which is why we usually spec’d an A/D of N bits at N-.5 bits in actual practice (looking at your data, maybe we should have used N-.6 ), and I agree that quantization error is only significant at small signals.

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Dec 30, 2022 14:29:38   #
dpullum Loc: Tampa Florida
 
If you are testing software on 3 differing exposures then just change the shutter speed.

For gray, print this as a test. 50 Shades Of Grey Colour Chart transparent PNG Image: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/686728643165155204/
https://www.pinterest.com/ideas/shades-of-gray-color/901432387305/

OR go to a paint department and get paint sample cards for free with various intensity of color.

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Dec 30, 2022 17:26:48   #
fantom Loc: Colorado
 
PHRubin wrote:
A simple view:

Dynamic range is the difference between the noise floor and the saturation ceiling. Each of those has more than one contributor.

Noise floor consists of the noise from the sensor (varies with sensor factors) and processor noise (ISO level and processor factors affects this).

Saturation can happen in the sensor or the processor or both.

Raising the ISO setting raises noise levels and drops the saturation level, reducing dynamic range capability.


Your last sentence seems to answer the question very well. I suppose this can be used as the "rule of thumb" but I don't understand why people are quibbling about it.

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Dec 30, 2022 18:46:26   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
fantom wrote:
Your last sentence seems to answer the question very well. I suppose this can be used as the "rule of thumb" but I don't understand why people are quibbling about it.


I think I’d revise the last sentence to say that raising the ISO increases a given signal closer to the saturation of the MSB of the A/D (or beyond it), BUT the reason you raise the ISO to begin with is because the signal isn’t large enough to reach the MSB (losing resolution and DR), so you actually lose resolution and DR unless you raise it.

To get the maximum resolution and DR out of your sensor and digitizer chain, you need to use all the available bits of the A/D

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