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POST PROCESSING VS. SOOC
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Oct 29, 2022 12:14:41   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
imagemeister wrote:
I do not mind PP - but it must be SIMPLE and very in-expensive - and that leaves shooting raw OUT !

The RAW editor I use (DPP) came with the <Canon> camera, updates are also free.
With JPEG one can do X things, with RAW one can do X+Y things.
Not more difficult, simply more versatile.

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Oct 29, 2022 12:16:04   #
Peteso Loc: Blacks Hills
 
DirtFarmer, IMHO, I suppose you can make that interpretation, but I think what Einstein was trying to say is don't oversimplify (unless you are doing so mindfully). In the context of today's culture, the Einstein quote was a timely insight. Perhaps more than ever, there is a tendency to avoid complicated issues. "KISS" (i.e., keep it simple stupid) is glib and certainly more common than what Einstein said a long time ago. Keeping something simple (like SOOC v. PP) is fine if you're doing so with the awareness that there are adverse consequences to that choice. But acting like SOOC v. PP are equivalents is simple-minded and lazy. (To be clear, this is not directed at anyone subscribed on UHH; it's sole purpose is to be responsive and make a point hopefully worth thinking about.)

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Oct 29, 2022 12:31:33   #
User ID
 
fredpnm wrote:
I don't mean to laugh, but you threw a monkey wrench into the whole SOOC argument for some folks who likely didn't know what the camera was doing...and of course you are correct.
"Monkey Wrench" ?? Howzbout a Gorilla Wrench ??? Gorillas can now shoot, edit and process raw files completely SOOC. (See attached pix.)









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Oct 29, 2022 12:37:58   #
sodapop Loc: Bel Air, MD
 
Nothing purist about SOOC. Just can't be bothered to learn PP

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Oct 29, 2022 12:55:03   #
MJPerini
 
kfoo wrote:
I am not trying to judge. I am just wondering what percentage of photographers use pp as opposed to SOOC. I just look at photos and I try to replicate the quality and I have difficulty getting that quality. Again, not trying to judge one way or the other.


If this is a serious question, I would answer it this way: First you have to decide if you are happy with your results, you have stated you are not. When you are not happy with results, generally you need to do something different.
While good results can be had weather shooting RAW, JPEG or Both, you should understand that shooting RAW gives you the most flexibility for extracting information from your file. RAW is 16 bit JPEG is only 8 bit. Jpeg is limited to the sRGB color space, RAW can use the wider gamut spaces like Adobe RGB or PRO Photo RGB. Not all pictures need that extra dynamic range, but some do. Everything you see one the internet is a JPEG in sRGB so excellent quality can be had with a JPEG workflow. But many of the best JPEGs you see on the internet started life as RAW files because all the editing done with 16 Bits of precision and wider color space, allows more control and quality in the process and are converted to JPEG as a final step. This is better for quality than trying to do extensive editing on a JPEG. It is also a bit more work and has a learning curve attached.
JPEG stands for Joint Photographic Experts Group. They were charged with finding a way to reduce the amount of data in photographic file so they could easily be displayed on the early internet. They did a fantastic job. JPEG files can look great, while having as much as 80% of the information in the RAW file thrown away. The changes are "Baked In". Now if you go to re- edit an in camera JPEG you are missing Lots of data.
Many modern camera manufacturers have done a wonderful job creating in camera algorithms that produce beautiful JPEGs in most situations. There is nothing at all wrong with using those. But if you intend to do extensive re editing (because the first edit was done inside the camera) then yo should try to keep those edits minimal. Every time you re edit and save a JPEG, The JPEG compression is applied again, and more data is lost.

So if you are getting great results SOOC, great, use them as they are. If you need to do extensive editing, you are better off with starting on RAW files.
You can shoot RAW + JPEG and use all the JPEGs that you are happy with, and for ones that need editing use the RAW files. It does not have to be PHOTOSHOP, there are Many good RAW converters/ editors available.
Give it a try.
Only you can decide how much effort you want to put into this, and the only goal should be to get results that make YOU happy and make the experience personally satisfying.
There is no ONE answer to any of this. What other people do is nothing more than data points.
Good Luck

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Oct 29, 2022 13:12:25   #
LFingar Loc: Claverack, NY
 
Longshadow wrote:
When I used to write software I used to say "I can make something fool proof, goof proof, and idiot proof,
but I cannot make it blithering idiot proof."


Back in '88 when I was first learning to skydive one of the first things I and every other student learned was how the equipment worked. At one point I mentioned to the instructor that "this stuff is idiot-proof". He replied: Yeah, but the problem is that as soon as you make something idiot-proof someone else invents a better idiot.

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Oct 29, 2022 13:16:53   #
LFingar Loc: Claverack, NY
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
I have always wondered about that quote.

If you make something as simple as possible, then it is not possible to make it simpler.


Einstein had a good sense of humor. That was just his slightly humorous way of saying "Don't try to oversimplify".

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Oct 29, 2022 13:31:16   #
rehess Loc: South Bend, Indiana, USA
 
DirtFarmer wrote:
I think keeping more information is a Good Thing.
The only information on my slides when they came back from processing was the processing date. Not the date I took the shot. Sometimes I wrote on the slide frame but that was relatively rare. One of the biggest lies we tell ourselves is 'I'll remember that'.

And LR does (roughly) 90% of my image adjustments. PS does (roughly) 10%, mostly the more complex adjustments.
The primary reason I chose LR to begin with was the DAM. LR is the way I find my images. I do directory trees also because when I'm gone, that's the way my family will find the family photos (or whatever).
I think keeping more information is a Good Thing. ... (show quote)

Many years ago, I began the practice of taking notes as I photograph, so I always have known much more than when the slide was processed and what the slide number was - that typically was my link into my notes. The content of those notes depends on conditions - for example, at one time I questioned the accuracy of my camera’s light meter, and my notes included the metering ‘mode’ used. In a many case, my notes were more useful than EXIF could ever be.

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Oct 29, 2022 13:40:43   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
LFingar wrote:
Back in '88 when I was first learning to skydive one of the first things I and every other student learned was how the equipment worked. At one point I mentioned to the instructor that "this stuff is idiot-proof". He replied: Yeah, but the problem is that as soon as you make something idiot-proof someone else invents a better idiot.


Always!

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Oct 29, 2022 14:12:00   #
Fredrick Loc: Former NYC, now San Francisco Bay Area
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
I once took a workshop/seminar with a well know, in the industry, industrial photograher. He said, "The image appears in the photographer's mind's eye, long before it appears on the film"! I loved that statement and asked him if I could use it in my advertising literature- even print it on my business card. He gave me permission. How cool was that? Well- in the end, I chickened out and decided it was too philosophical. My industrial clients manufacture big ugly earth-moving equipment, giant cranes, and blasting supplies! Waxing poetic might not go over well on a job site where skilled folks cuss a lot. I still believe in the mind's eye thing. If you can pull off what you previsualize, you are on the right track! How you get there does not matter.
I once took a workshop/seminar with a well know, i... (show quote)

“If you can pull off what you previsualize, you are on the right track.”

You know, I see you saying that, and over the years on this forum I’ve seen other photographers say “I PP my image to turn it into what I saw when I took it,” and I just don’t buy it. First if all, how can you remember exactly what you saw? Secondly, I believe many people PP an image to turn it into what they “wanted” to see, to what is visually pleasing to them.

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Oct 29, 2022 14:42:22   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
tradio wrote:
I shoot in RAW 100% of the time so PP is a requirement.


I never shoot raw so PP is a requirement

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Oct 29, 2022 14:42:46   #
jack schade Loc: La Pine Oregon
 
I shoot raw plus jpeg. Most of the time I do some pp. The raw files have to be processed. I also process some jpeg images.

jack

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Oct 29, 2022 14:45:58   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
LFingar wrote:
If you consider pp to be any changes made to an image after the sensor collects that image then everybody uses pp. JPEGs are processed in camera based on settings put in by the manufacturer, many of which you can change, BTW. RAW images require processing in your computer. Either way, there is processing involved.
If you shoot JPEG there are a number of camera parameters you can change to get a better image "SOOC". If you shoot RAW it just takes time and practice to get the best out of the image.
If you consider pp to be any changes made to an im... (show quote)


If you shoot jpeg you too can improve your images

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Oct 29, 2022 14:50:00   #
joecichjr Loc: Chicago S. Suburbs, Illinois, USA
 
Ysarex wrote:
I'm going to assume you mean you have difficulty getting that quality SOOC without additional processing.

So even most of the folks who responded that they shoot JPEG acknowledged that they PP their images.

My wife and I go to the park every late afternoon for a walk. Yesterday I took two photos while we were there. I have a compact camera I carry with me everywhere (Canon G7). I think the two photos I took are instructive given your question.

First image below is the camera JPEG (SOOC with crop) of the photo I took while we sat on the bench after our walk. The camera JPEG is both overexposed and underexposed. The sky is nuked out with the highlights blown and the shadowed section in the foreground is too dark. The get it right in camera solution? Is not going to happen. This is a case of excessive contrast and it's common enough that the camera manufacturers have added functions in our cameras to address it. I'm using one of them here from Canon that they call Auto Lighting Optimizer -- I have it set to the highest value. The JPEG would be worse without it but it isn't enough. I could throw in another function that Canon calls HTP (highlight tone priority) but that would require that I reduce exposure -- the opposite of what's truly needed. More sophisticated cameras will offer more like an HDR option but none of those functions will produce the photo I took with trivial effort. The sky in the photo is daylight WB while the foreground is open shade WB. In processing the raw file I was able to apply both selectively to the respective areas -- not going to happen shooting a SOOC JPEG.

The camera JPEG is a wastebasket case given the blown highlights in the sky. To capture a JPEG that I could use and PP I would have to reduce exposure and substantially underexpose the darker sections of the image that are already underexposed. Best option shooting JPEG would be a camera with an HDR function and then try and repair the result. Still it would not be possible to do what I did in my version of the photo using the raw file. Second best option is a JPEG with less exposure. Either way PP will be required.

That's a really big difference between raw and JPEG here. The JPEG highlights are nuked but those highlights are not nuked in the raw file. Shooting raw I can expose more and that's big advantage. So the second photo below is processed from that raw file that I deliberately captured. Shooting raw in a lighting situation like this means I did a lot less work overall assuming the photo I wanted is the one I got. I like blue and orange together.

Walking back to the car we saw this fungus growing out of a hole in a tree. The sun had set and it was twilight. To take a photo I had to raise the ISO to 3200 on my little 1" sensor compact -- that's pushing it. The first photo below is the camera JPEG (SOOC with crop). This photo is a good example of why the myth "get it right in camera" is a myth. It is a rare photo that, delivered directly by the camera SOOC, won't benefit from some degree of local adjustment. It does happen and that interment reinforcement keeps the myth alive.

So the camera JPEG is pretty poor. To start it's off color. It's blue. That's because I had the camera set to auto WB. That's what auto WB does -- it get's the color wrong. But I have to set a WB so if not auto then a preset that would also have been wrong or a custom WB. Setting a custom WB is a pain so what to do. Try and fix the JPEG? Good luck with that.

The subject of the photo is the fungus. The hole in the tree functions as a frame. The frame is too light. There are no picture controls in the camera that will deal with that. It's a simple thing but what a difference it makes. I darkened the tree around the fungus bottom and right side while processing the photo. It is a rare photo that won't benefit from some local adjustment applied in post process.

As for the color, I keep my camera in a little pouch case and slipped in there is a piece of white Styrofoam. I placed it in the scene for the last shot and had a perfect WB target for processing the raw file. The JPEG is a bit noisy given the 3200 ISO (amazing it's as good as it is). This is a classic camera problem. Noise filtering is processor intensive and processing power in the camera is at a premium. Your camera has to process it's JPEGs assuming that you're holding the shutter release down and expect multiple JPEGs per second. The needed processing power + time simply isn't available for the camera to do any kind of noise filtering much above the level of "really sucks." I processed the raw file using state-of-the-art noise filtering from DXO that's only available with raw files. It makes a difference.

So two casual snapshots during a walk in the park -- post processing required if you really want a good result.
I'm going to assume you mean you have difficulty g... (show quote)


Awesome shooting

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Oct 29, 2022 14:58:59   #
bw79st Loc: New York City
 
I realized early on that shooting JPEGs meant I could not change anything since every time I opened and saved a JPEG I was diminishing the quality. My answer was to save as a TIFF file. Then when I could shoot in RAW I realized I was now in control, analogous to the lab used by the corner drug store deciding what my photo should look like.

I was never a darkroom photographer, but now I am. ACR gives me so much control, along with PSCC, plus the ability to add keywords and descriptions to legacy photos. This has opened a new world to me! I'm getting old and I hope I will be passing on my collection of old family photos, dating to the early 1900s, to a new generation. Having the ability to imbed information is essential! I have no idea if they will have the ability to retrieve that information but down the line someone will and it will be there for them.

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