Ozychatie Loc: Melbourne Australia

First my apologies as I’m guessing this subject may have been done to death but I cannot really find clear answers to my specific questions.

Nearly all of my post processing (PP) so far has been done directly in a copy of the original, image raw file. I make extensive use of masking and other tools such as dodge and burn, graduated filters, levels, brightness and contrast, sharpening and so on. The attached image (screen dump) was processed without layers. Would it/could it have been better if I had used a layer based approach to processing it?

I use ACR and Adobe Elements 21 with several plug in programs. I believe the plug-ins work on a layer basis. I also understand the underlying concept of layers and have used a layer, for chromatic aberration correction but that is about it. However, I have insufficient understanding to make fully informed use of layers.

What I would like to know is:
• The reason for using layers in PP and the advantage over direct image manipulation/when to use and when not to use layers?
• How to decide which of various types of layer to use and the optimal tool/process to use?
• How to determine the individual layers transparency?
• How to arrange the order of the layer stack for optimal results?

Aside from moving my overall PP to a better level, I want to be able to cut out and insert objects in an image for creative purposes.

Any assistance gratefully appreciated.


John

Would it/could it have been better if I had used a layer based approach to processing it?

Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States

I like it.

(I suppose it depends on how you want(ed) to treat it.)

anotherview Loc: California

You may wish to consider reviewing online tutorials to learn more about a specific process. Adobe offers plenty of tutorials free. You can teach yourself the finer points of post-processing by this means. I note that ACR now offers so many adjustments that you can do most edits there and then finish your processing in the full Photoshop.

Toment Loc: FL, IL

I like it too.
I think each time you use a filter, a layer is created. Be sure and start with a duplicate and keep the original.

gvarner Loc: Central Oregon Coast

Layers give me control over a specific area of the photo and the ability to turn the effect on and off for comparison. I determine transparency by sliding the % slider back and forth and observe the effect.

BigDaddy Loc: Pittsburgh, PA

Layers make it easy to make adjustments w/o editing the original layer so you can easily go back and
add/remove/adjust/compare adjustments.

Adjustments such as levels, curves, white balance, gradient maps and so on are all done in layers. You attach the layer to a
image or any selected part of the image and fool with the adjustments w/o changing the original images. You can adjust what
parts of the image are affected with masks and so on. If you think you need to make adjustments, you do that in a layer. You
can turn that layer on or off, change the opacity and so on. For example, if you want to remove blemishes from a teens face, you
would do that in a new layer on top of the layer with the face. After finishing a thousand edits, his mom wants the blemishes
back. If the repairs were made on the original layer, bummer. If on it's own layer, just click and hide the layer, blemishes
reappear. There are millions of reason for layers, almost no reason not to use them.

Layer transparency, or opacity simply means what percentage of the adjustment is applied. For example, if you make a
black layer on top of another layer[s] it will hide the layers below. If you reduce the opacity to say 10% 90% of the layers
below will display.

Layers affect the layers below them. This can be all layers below it, or, just one layer below it. I use Affinity, and you can attach
the layer to another layer, and it will effect just that layer, or you can place the layer above and it will affect all layers below it.
Different editors handle it differently.

Learning layers (and masks) is a must if you want to do serious photo editing. Plenty of tutorials on it. It is super easy once you get the concept. Knowing when and what adjustments to make is a life long learning experience.

Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington

A quick note about plug-ins and PS Elements: my Topaz Studio 2 does not create its own layer, but my Nik Collection does. You can easily determine by being in the Expert Mode and having layers panel open when you access your plug-ins.

Another topic on your subject, from just two weeks ago, has more great information in addition to what has been posted here already. Click this.

.

CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City

We could make a better assessment of your image if you'd Save-As to a JPEG and attach and store that JPEG attachment.

Regarding using a copy of your RAW file: 100% unnecessary. A RAW file is read-only, always. You cannot corrupt the RAW image file during editing and the original data is read-only in all software programs.

Next, your PSE software is a 16-bit editor for global tools. But, whenever you invoke a PSE tool based on a layer, your RAW image is forced to an 8-bit file. So, the color data of your 12- (or 14-bit) RAW file is forced to an 8-bit format as if you'd shot in JPEG. This isn't a crisis, but limits the 'extent' of some of your color-updates to the image. Something we might see if / when you attach the JPEG as a reply.

Layers let you make very specific updates, as well as to merge / blend layers in ways you just can't accomplish working globally. How you edit your images depends on what you need to accomplish. There's no way to forecast the tools / techniques needed until we see a specific image and the needs of that image. Again, if we can see the details of this image via an attached JPEG, we can have a more informed and useful discussion.

Ozychatie Loc: Melbourne Australia

Hi Guys thank you for your replies.

The full version of ACR has many more functions than the ACR packaged with Elements unfortunately.

What I'm finding with the online tutorials is that they explain the how very well, but not so much the why or when. It is these aspects of layers I am looking at getting a better understanding of.

r1ch Loc: Colorado

I don't use the tools you use.

When do I use layers.

First in my raw editor you can do most editing within raw. This means FX can be added without creating layers. Using local adjustments can be masked so each adjustment is treated as a separate edit, sort of like layers. So the image you posted would not need to uses layers.

In your image, your workflow would not need layers because as you said you do masking.

First thing use layers for is if I use say Topaz Sharpen AI, or Luminar Neo's Portrait tool. I would send the image via a layer to one of these programs. After a global edit(an edit to the whole image) it would be sent back as a layer. I could then say I only wanted the eyes sharpened by Topaz. I would invert the layer so it was completely transparent and paint the sharpened eyes in. Then use the Neo layer do the same thing as far as transparency and paint the just the skin around the cheeks and forehead in on a different layer.

In layers I could bring another picture in and do a composite. Say bring a astrophotograph of the night milky way sky and paint it in over the other sky. (this can be done in some programs without using layers.)

I could use a layer blending mode and take one image and blend it with another, not just using a mask but using adding or subtracting the or blending the colors from 2 images on 2 different layer in an additive, subtractive process to get a different effect which could not be created by using local adjustment.
You can use this method to remove chromatic aeration or a sharpening halo from an image that was overshadowed.

If you had a high dynamic range images, say a sunset like your picture. You could take to images with your camera say one image a stop or two lower, then put each image on a separate layer. Then make one image transparent and then paint in the sun from the other layer which is not blow out.

Because of the ability for most programs to mask a local adjustment, a layer is not needed where in older software you had to use a layer.

Composites (the putting together of 2 images into one ) is often used by using layers since a local adjustment cannot bring a different image into your image.

traderjohn Loc: New York City

I would ask the question about layers on YouTube.

Ozychatie Loc: Melbourne Australia

Hi r1ch,
Thanks for your reply. As you suggested, I did indeed edit this sunset using masking. I have the Topaz suite as plug-ins and make some, judicious use of them but primarily I work in the host program Elements.

I’m heartened to hear from someone else who uses a similar approach – thank you.

Nevertheless, the more I use Elements, the more confident I am becoming with it which lead me to start exploring the role and use of layers.

Whilst I have had a lot of “how to” suggestions, fully understanding why or when to user layer based processing in preference to the direct method is still not quite clear.

I guess there is little substitute for a bit of trial and error.
Kind regards

John

Ozychatie Loc: Melbourne Australia

Hi everyone,
I guess ,and I'm sorry for this, my mind wasn't clear what exactly I was trying to ask. I don't know if it helps to say I find there appears to be many different ways of getting a particular result.

Is it better to use "Levels adjustments or Shadows and Highlight adjustments and apply them directly or in a layer?

Further I find the number of layer options overwhelming suggesting a good understanding of the different layer types is needed to use them well. For instance, what is the difference between Layer from background, Layer copy and Duplicate Layer when creating a layer from the original file? In Elements' Layer menu there are about 40 different choices admittedly not all are available at once and many are clearly not for adjustments.

regards

John

kymarto Loc: Portland OR and Milan Italy

One main point of layers is that they are non-destructive, leaving the original background layer intact. I find layers for local adjustments invaluable, since layer masks are non-destructive as well, and you can "paint in" or "paint out" the areas of the layer as many times as you need, change the feathering, etc. After you have defined the area of the layer to be used, you can make adjustments to it in real time and observe the effect, and get it exactly right.

Another thing that has not been discussed is the fact that layers have blending modes that are extremely powerful and can be used in a variety of ways.

Linda From Maine Loc: Yakima, Washington

Yes, many different ways, but you probably want to consider not "worrying" about all of them at once

For example, working in PSE's Expert module, using layers, it will quickly become second nature to select "adjustment layer" when you want to adjust levels, hue/color, brightness etc.

I strongly urge you to use layers for all your editing and to forget the "direct to image" approach. That simplifies your process and decision-making.

Aside from the wealth of YouTube videos, Adobe Help has info pages on all processes, such as:
https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop-elements/using/copying-arranging-layers.html

Enjoy your journey!