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Composition question
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Jul 4, 2022 11:21:46   #
R.G. Loc: Scotland
 
As their name suggests, the purpose of a leading line is to lead the eye into the shot. Because of that, most leading lines start from either the bottom edge or the lower half of either side. I would not describe your reed as providing a leading line. I frequently have the edges of roads and paths starting from a corner and I've never considered that to be a mistake, although I have a slight preference for starting them from close to the corner rather than exactly from the corner.

In your shot, if you cropped from the left a little, the reed would be entering the frame from the side rather than from the top. The top entry point creates an impression of the reed hanging from above, which may suit you - but obviously not the judge. I suppose it's one of those divisive points that create divergent opinions. Calling corner entry points a mistake is putting it a bit too strongly IMO, but like centred horizons, the safe option seems to be to avoid them.

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Jul 4, 2022 11:58:34   #
murphle Loc: Wisconsin
 
Hip Coyote wrote:
Never is a big word. But I did download your photo and cropped and slightly edited. With your ok, I will upload. I concur that the reed coming from the upper right is a distraction.




Please do, I’m liking all the input and understanding where everyone is coming from and why. Great learning experience.

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Jul 4, 2022 12:17:53   #
Hip Coyote
 
murphle wrote:
Please do, I’m liking all the input and understanding where everyone is coming from and why. Great learning experience.


A bit of cropping, a little highlight on the bird and a bit of vignette to make the bird stand out.


(Download)

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Jul 4, 2022 12:19:39   #
murphle Loc: Wisconsin
 
R.G. wrote:
As their name suggests, the purpose of a leading line is to lead the eye into the shot. Because of that, most leading lines start from either the bottom edge or the lower half of either side. I would not describe your reed as providing a leading line. I frequently have the edges of roads and paths starting from a corner and I've never considered that to be a mistake, although I have a slight preference for starting them from close to the corner rather than exactly from the corner.

In your shot, if you cropped from the left a little, the reed would be entering the frame from the side rather than from the top. The top entry point creates an impression of the reed hanging from above, which may suit you - but obviously not the judge. I suppose it's one of those divisive points that create divergent opinions. Calling corner entry points a mistake is putting it a bit too strongly IMO, but like centred horizons, the safe option seems to be to avoid them.
As their name suggests, the purpose of a leading l... (show quote)


Wonderful explanation, thanks!

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Jul 4, 2022 12:22:06   #
murphle Loc: Wisconsin
 
Hip Coyote wrote:
A bit of cropping, a little highlight on the bird and a bit of vignette to make the bird stand out.


I like this crop very much and the edit overall as well. Thanks for taking your time. This gives me plenty to think about for future compositions.

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Jul 4, 2022 12:29:02   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
The problem- Everyone is opining on an issue that the OP has but the OP has not posted the image in question. Y'all can talk about this "rule" 'till the close come home and go away and come home again but without the image, it's all moot!

When teaching, studying, learning and analyzing COMPOSITION, there are some definitive rules and guidelines that can help in expanding various theories and methodologies. Most folks are taking a class, reading a book, or receiving critiques. etc WANT some definitive answers and rules to apply. Without an image to discuss, the written or spoken rules mean nothing and sometimes amount to a load of useless technobabble and a geometry lesson.

There are times when the "rules" need to be purposely broken to obtain the desired effect.

Some newer photograher place diagrams on the camera's viewing screen so as to conform to various compositional theories. Others prefer a grid. Someof these diagrams are built into various cameras and cell phone cameras. Perhaps this is a good learning practice but it is like training wheels on a bicycle- after some practice, it is time to remove the wheels and achieve a natural sense of BALANCE.

A good and effective composition starts at the camera so whenever possible, it is a good practice to look for elements such as leading lines, rule of thirds, horizon placement, etc. so it is wise to try to shoot from various angles and heights, change focal lengths, alter perspectives, and refine the first shot. Final cropping and composition can be addressed in post-processing. On the other hand, if you are shooting a fleeting bird or animal, a sports event, etc, somets it is best to shoot first and ask questions later. Always try for effective composition but not at the expense of losing a great spontaneous shot or expression.

I can sympathize with the submitter in a critiquing situation because oftentimes they are left with unanswered questions or confusing issues. I can also sympathize with the judge or critic. Offering a real comprehensive critique in a limited time can be difficult. If a particular element in an image is given a negative critique, just saying "NEVER" or "DON'T DO THAT" is insufficient unless it is accompanied by a reason why it is a distraction or detrimental to the visual effectiveness or impact of the total image.

Again, if anyone wants a second opinion from folks here on the forum, for heaven's sake POST THE IMAGE!

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Jul 4, 2022 12:57:48   #
CamB Loc: Juneau, Alaska
 
Hip Coyote wrote:
A bit of cropping, a little highlight on the bird and a bit of vignette to make the bird stand out.


Much improved.

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Jul 4, 2022 13:11:50   #
Bill_de Loc: US
 
murphle wrote:
I’ve been taught to pay attention to leading lines. At a photo competition the other day, the judge was critiquing the images and said you should never bring a diagonal line in from a corner. I’ve never heard this.

Example of the critique would be a beautiful flower, wonderfully exposed, great light, with the stem coming from the left corner and leading the eye to the flower. The judge said you should never bring the diagonal line from the corner like that.

Input? I’m so very curious……
I’ve been taught to pay attention to leading lines... (show quote)


I guess I was taught it a one point, but don't really think about. Howevr, take a look at my post from a couple of weeks ago for a few examples ... if you want.

https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-742782-1.html

---

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Jul 4, 2022 13:29:20   #
FreddB Loc: PA - Delaware County
 
If someone can’t find the subject in this picture - “All roads lead to Rome” - there’s not much hope for them.

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Jul 4, 2022 13:52:17   #
murphle Loc: Wisconsin
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
The problem- Everyone is opining on an issue that the OP has but the OP has not posted the image in question. Y'all can talk about this "rule" 'till the close come home and go away and come home again but without the image, it's all moot!

When teaching, studying, learning and analyzing COMPOSITION, there are some definitive rules and guidelines that can help in expanding various theories and methodologies. Most folks are taking a class, reading a book, or receiving critiques. etc WANT some definitive answers and rules to apply. Without an image to discuss, the written or spoken rules mean nothing and sometimes amount to a load of useless technobabble and a geometry lesson.

There are times when the "rules" need to be purposely broken to obtain the desired effect.

Some newer photograher place diagrams on the camera's viewing screen so as to conform to various compositional theories. Others prefer a grid. Someof these diagrams are built into various cameras and cell phone cameras. Perhaps this is a good learning practice but it is like training wheels on a bicycle- after some practice, it is time to remove the wheels and achieve a natural sense of BALANCE.

A good and effective composition starts at the camera so whenever possible, it is a good practice to look for elements such as leading lines, rule of thirds, horizon placement, etc. so it is wise to try to shoot from various angles and heights, change focal lengths, alter perspectives, and refine the first shot. Final cropping and composition can be addressed in post-processing. On the other hand, if you are shooting a fleeting bird or animal, a sports event, etc, somets it is best to shoot first and ask questions later. Always try for effective composition but not at the expense of losing a great spontaneous shot or expression.

I can sympathize with the submitter in a critiquing situation because oftentimes they are left with unanswered questions or confusing issues. I can also sympathize with the judge or critic. Offering a real comprehensive critique in a limited time can be difficult. If a particular element in an image is given a negative critique, just saying "NEVER" or "DON'T DO THAT" is insufficient unless it is accompanied by a reason why it is a distraction or detrimental to the visual effectiveness or impact of the total image.

Again, if anyone wants a second opinion from folks here on the forum, for heaven's sake POST THE IMAGE!
The problem- Everyone is opining on an issue that ... (show quote)


Thanks for your input. In my post, I explained why I could not post the image. Doesn’t change the fact that I still had a question that could be addressed by other means, I.e. using my image as an example. Thanks to all who helped me figure this out:) I appreciate you taking your time.

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Jul 4, 2022 13:53:05   #
horizonphototours Loc: From Montana but living in Southern Utah
 
murphle wrote:
Ah.... So it's ok to come from the quadrant, but not have a line coming from the corner. I can't use the one from the show because a) it's not mine and b) for some reason, it won't let me retrieve the full image, just a poorly cropped version for the virtual show....

I will use a pic of mine as an example. Please if you could recommend a crop that would be appropriate so I understand and stop sending in stuff from the corner:) Thank you all for your patience and help.


I like the crop you did and would just say that a line leading to a corner simply creates a strong geometric design in the image, in this case a triangle on a corner. It confuses the eye a bit as asymmetry and curves seem more "natural" than geometric shapes for Nature. This isn't so much a rule as it is about what feels comfortable. A line to a corner feels forced and uncomfortable.

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Jul 4, 2022 14:04:38   #
rook2c4 Loc: Philadelphia, PA USA
 
MrBob wrote:
Rules, rules and more rules... When you are in Lightroom or photoshop do you REALLY think about rules ? I move sliders, crop and fiddle faddle until it seems RIGHT in my eyes; isn't that whats its all about.


Composition rules are for two types of people - those who have very little confidence in their artistic intuition... and for art critics who are trying to explain why a particular composition works or doesn't work.

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Jul 4, 2022 14:13:50   #
jaymatt Loc: Alexandria, Indiana
 
There are no “composition rules" per se; rather, there are guideline suggestions which may be broken at will with solid reasoning.

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Jul 4, 2022 15:00:07   #
JohnCl Loc: Central Arizona
 
Good question Murphle, I haven’t thought about that. One potential reason for avoiding the exact corner would be to avoid drawing attention to the corner and away from the subject.

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Jul 4, 2022 16:59:10   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
Life is like photography, it's easy until you start following all the rules explained on the internet.

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