Canon Mirrorless Camera
Jun 6, 2022 11:55:43 #
Nana65
Loc: Arkansas
I currently shoot with a Canon DSLR 7D Mark ii and a Canon 70-200 f2.8 pro lens. I mainly shoot sports. I love this setup, but as I've gotten older the weight is beginning to bother my hands and arms. I tried the Olympus OM-D camera but it just doesn't feel right and the menu settings are not as easy for me to navigate as the Canon menu. And I just haven't been getting the quality of photo I've gotten from my current setup. Is there a Canon mirrorless and lens combo that will perform as well as the 7D?
Jun 6, 2022 12:30:08 #
Ysarex
Loc: St. Louis
Nana65 wrote:
I currently shoot with a Canon DSLR 7D Mark ii and... (show quote)
Apparently coming soon in the same sensor size as your 7D -- the new EOS R7 mirrorless. But mirrorless isn't really going to reduce the weight for you much if at all. Your weight is in that lens and it'll be basically the same lens for the new camera. To get the rig smaller and lighter you really need to reduce sensor size as you did with the OM-D.
Jun 6, 2022 13:23:25 #
rbtree
Loc: Shoreline, WA, United States
I own an R5 and 7D II. Love both. The R5 is about 200 grams lighter (based on this comparison--R vs 7D https://cameradecision.com/compare/Canon-EOS-R-vs-Canon-EOS-7D
And, if you're awash with cash, the RF 70-200 f/2.8 is compact and a lot lighter than the EF version. As the R bodies have somewhat improved low light performance, you could also consider the RF 70-200 f/4....
And, if you're awash with cash, the RF 70-200 f/2.8 is compact and a lot lighter than the EF version. As the R bodies have somewhat improved low light performance, you could also consider the RF 70-200 f/4....
Jun 6, 2022 13:33:36 #
amfoto1
Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA
The new Canon R7 is very probably what you will want and will come close to or exceed the 7D Mark II in various ways. But it's a mixed bag and comes up a little short in some other ways. One might say the R7 is more of a major upgrade to the 90D, instead of an upgrade the 7DII.
The R7 was announced about 10 days ago and will be in stores around the end of this month. However, depending upon demand (which I think will be strong) and how quickly Canon can fill pre-orders, it may be some time before you can get your hands on one.
You say you shoot sports, but it really depends upon whether you do so professionally or as an amateur, such as a proud parent shooting their kid's sports. Both are sports shooters and the R7 will be great for the latter, but it has some shortcomings for the high volume, pro shooter.
Some aspects of the R7, as compared to the 7D Mark II and 90D...
- Very good value at $1499 (7DII sold for $1799 when introduced. OTOH, 90D is selling for $1199.)
- R7 is smaller and about 10 oz. lighter weight than 7DII.
- R7 has a fabulous autofocus system. Way beyond what any Canon DSLR can do. In fact, the R7 inherits much of the top-of-the-line $6000 R3's AF capabilities! Some reviewers think the R3's is the best AF system on the market today. We can expect similar with the R7 and that like with other mirrorless, the AF system will be a game changer for sports shooters still using DSLRs. The AF not only quickly detects subjects on its own, it locks on and is very "sticky" following their movement. It finds faces and even eyes to focus upon. It can be set for optimal performance with various types of subjects: people, animals, vehicles. The R7 doesn't have the Eye Control of the R3, but other than that the AF is the same (this adds some features not found on the slightly older, but still very capable R5 and R6).
- R7 has 32.5MP sensor, up from 20MP in 7DII. This is both good and bad. More resolution, but also more sensitive to camera shake and more demanding of lens quality.
- R7's mechanical shutter can shoot at 15 frames/sec. (compared to 10 fps in both 7DII and 90D).
- R7's electronic shutter can shoot 30 fps and up to 1/16000. But due to rolling shutter effect, will likely be limited for shooting fast moving subjects.
- R7 uses same type battery as 7DII/90D. R7 is rated to get 770 shots with a fully charged LP-E6NH. But the 90D gets 1300! 7DII is only rated to get 670 shots. However, this is a bit misleading. For one, they all likely get more shots than they are rated. But the biggest problem with the comparison is that the two DSLRs have built-in flashes and when standard CIPA battery tests are done, 50% of shots use full power flash. If you simply don't use the built-in flash, you get many more shots per charge. I've easily gotten 1200 to 1500 shots per battery per charge with each of my 7DII. (I haven't used 90D for more than a few shots, so can only assume it too can get far more than it's rated). Here's one of the tricks of the R7... it doesn't have a built-in flash. So that makes it's battery performance look better than the 7DII's, but it probably isn't. In other words, the R7 will probably get closer to what it's rated, while the 7DII can easily get double the shots it's rated to do.
- 7DII can be fitted with a vertical battery grip that doubles battery capacity, while also providing an ergonomically comfortable grip and a full set of secondary control. The R7 is not designed to accommodate a grip, nor does Canon plan to provide one (this has been confirmed by Canon themselves). So high volume shooters will be changing batteries twice as often. 3rd party manufacturers such as Vello might come up with a grip for the R7, but those lack the controls and use an external wire to connect their shutter button. It's baffling why Canon didn't just make the R7 compatible with the BG-R10 grip offered for the R5 and R6. The R7 is virtually the same size and shape as those cameras and uses the same batteries! Seems like it would have been easy to do at little add'l cost. Of course, if you have weight concerns, you probably don't use a battery grip and 2nd battery anyway.
- R7 appears to have a rather limited buffer and a bit of a bottleneck at the memory cards. Shooting RAW the R7 will fill its buffer in 3 seconds if using the 15 fps mechanical shutter... or just over 1 second using the electronic shutter at 30 fps! The 7DII buffers 3 seconds continuous shooting RAW at its top speed, but because the files are much smaller it off-loads from the buffer to the memory card almost as fast as new images are added to the buffer. I rarely use "spray and pray" style shooting, but even when I do long bursts I have very rarely seen slight pauses. It is probably the R7 will experience longer delays. Some of the early reviewers working with pre-production cameras reported up to 8 second delay waiting for the buffer to clear enough to start shooting again. This is because the R7 uses slower SD memory cards, instead of the much more expensive but far faster CF Express used in other cameras. Short bursts should be no problem. But long ones might see a pause that causes some missed shots. No doubt people will test different cards to see what works best. This may be quite important with sports shooters using R7.
- Canon claims R7 weather resistance is roughly comparable to 90D... not as high as 7DII's. They have told us nothing about durability. The 7DII is rated to have a life span of 200,000 shutter actuations. The 90D is rated to do 120,000 (which is an increase compared to 80D, 70D, etc. which were 100,000, but also had slower max frame rate). Keeping in mind that those are 10 fps cameras, I would hope the R7 being able to do 15 fps would have a shutter rated to do 300,000 clicks.... but suspect it's not. Canon hasn't said. The 90D uses a lot of "polycarbonate" (i.e., "plastic"). It appears the R7 does too, though reviewers report it "feels solid". The 7DII uses a magnesium shell that just seems more premium quality. Oh well, I suppose that's how the lower price is possible.
- The R7 has a somewhat unique control layout. The rear dial is now moved up and around the joystick. I'm sure most folks can get accustomed to this and comfortable with it... might even like it! However, I often use two or three cameras when shooting sports and have to switch between them quickly and seamlessly. It's important to me that the cameras have very similar ergonomics and control layout, so that I'm not fumbling around when I switch cameras. I have three very compatible DSLRs right now... two APS-C and one full frame. I would be concerned trying to fit one or two R7 into the mix, due to their quite different control layout. (I also have a fourth, very compact M-series mirrorless that I use for certain things, but those don't require the same ability to switch quickly). I'm not sure why Canon felt the need to mess with already excellent ergonomics and control layout. But they did! Of course, anyone just using a single camera will be fine, once they become comfortable with the new layout. FWIW, the reviewers did note that the R7 has two dials for exposure control, where some (most? all?) of the other R-series have three. But the multi-directional key pad or other user programmable controls might mitigate this possible concern. Shooting sports, it can be helpful to keep one's eye to the viewfinder, while making adjustments by feel: aperture, shutter, ISO and Exposure Compensation... and dedicated, easy access dials are ideal for this purpose. OTOH, the electronic viewfinder of a mirrorless camera can display exposure simulation that helps a lot with those same exposure adjustments. You can even set up to toggle a histogram on and off in the viewfinder, if you wish.
- There are adapters that allow any current Canon EF and EF-S lenses you might have to be used on the R7. Many people doing this with other R-series cameras have said the lenses work just as well or possibly even better on the mirrorless camera, compared to when they were used on DSLRs. There also are some great RF lenses, if you prefer. There's a new RF 18-150mm "walk-around" kit lens being offered with R7 (adds $400 to the cost). There's also a $650 RF 100-400mm that would likely be great for daytime sports. If needed, there are also more premium RF 70-200mm f/4 and f/2.8 lenses that are more compact and lighter weight than their EF counterparts. More expensive, though.
Overall, while it's not perfect for me... R7 might be perfect for you. Only you can say. Check it out!
https://cameradecision.com/compare/Canon-EOS-R7-vs-Canon-EOS-7D-Mark-II
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1707911-REG/canon_eos_r7_mirrorless_camera.html
The R7 was announced about 10 days ago and will be in stores around the end of this month. However, depending upon demand (which I think will be strong) and how quickly Canon can fill pre-orders, it may be some time before you can get your hands on one.
You say you shoot sports, but it really depends upon whether you do so professionally or as an amateur, such as a proud parent shooting their kid's sports. Both are sports shooters and the R7 will be great for the latter, but it has some shortcomings for the high volume, pro shooter.
Some aspects of the R7, as compared to the 7D Mark II and 90D...
- Very good value at $1499 (7DII sold for $1799 when introduced. OTOH, 90D is selling for $1199.)
- R7 is smaller and about 10 oz. lighter weight than 7DII.
- R7 has a fabulous autofocus system. Way beyond what any Canon DSLR can do. In fact, the R7 inherits much of the top-of-the-line $6000 R3's AF capabilities! Some reviewers think the R3's is the best AF system on the market today. We can expect similar with the R7 and that like with other mirrorless, the AF system will be a game changer for sports shooters still using DSLRs. The AF not only quickly detects subjects on its own, it locks on and is very "sticky" following their movement. It finds faces and even eyes to focus upon. It can be set for optimal performance with various types of subjects: people, animals, vehicles. The R7 doesn't have the Eye Control of the R3, but other than that the AF is the same (this adds some features not found on the slightly older, but still very capable R5 and R6).
- R7 has 32.5MP sensor, up from 20MP in 7DII. This is both good and bad. More resolution, but also more sensitive to camera shake and more demanding of lens quality.
- R7's mechanical shutter can shoot at 15 frames/sec. (compared to 10 fps in both 7DII and 90D).
- R7's electronic shutter can shoot 30 fps and up to 1/16000. But due to rolling shutter effect, will likely be limited for shooting fast moving subjects.
- R7 uses same type battery as 7DII/90D. R7 is rated to get 770 shots with a fully charged LP-E6NH. But the 90D gets 1300! 7DII is only rated to get 670 shots. However, this is a bit misleading. For one, they all likely get more shots than they are rated. But the biggest problem with the comparison is that the two DSLRs have built-in flashes and when standard CIPA battery tests are done, 50% of shots use full power flash. If you simply don't use the built-in flash, you get many more shots per charge. I've easily gotten 1200 to 1500 shots per battery per charge with each of my 7DII. (I haven't used 90D for more than a few shots, so can only assume it too can get far more than it's rated). Here's one of the tricks of the R7... it doesn't have a built-in flash. So that makes it's battery performance look better than the 7DII's, but it probably isn't. In other words, the R7 will probably get closer to what it's rated, while the 7DII can easily get double the shots it's rated to do.
- 7DII can be fitted with a vertical battery grip that doubles battery capacity, while also providing an ergonomically comfortable grip and a full set of secondary control. The R7 is not designed to accommodate a grip, nor does Canon plan to provide one (this has been confirmed by Canon themselves). So high volume shooters will be changing batteries twice as often. 3rd party manufacturers such as Vello might come up with a grip for the R7, but those lack the controls and use an external wire to connect their shutter button. It's baffling why Canon didn't just make the R7 compatible with the BG-R10 grip offered for the R5 and R6. The R7 is virtually the same size and shape as those cameras and uses the same batteries! Seems like it would have been easy to do at little add'l cost. Of course, if you have weight concerns, you probably don't use a battery grip and 2nd battery anyway.
- R7 appears to have a rather limited buffer and a bit of a bottleneck at the memory cards. Shooting RAW the R7 will fill its buffer in 3 seconds if using the 15 fps mechanical shutter... or just over 1 second using the electronic shutter at 30 fps! The 7DII buffers 3 seconds continuous shooting RAW at its top speed, but because the files are much smaller it off-loads from the buffer to the memory card almost as fast as new images are added to the buffer. I rarely use "spray and pray" style shooting, but even when I do long bursts I have very rarely seen slight pauses. It is probably the R7 will experience longer delays. Some of the early reviewers working with pre-production cameras reported up to 8 second delay waiting for the buffer to clear enough to start shooting again. This is because the R7 uses slower SD memory cards, instead of the much more expensive but far faster CF Express used in other cameras. Short bursts should be no problem. But long ones might see a pause that causes some missed shots. No doubt people will test different cards to see what works best. This may be quite important with sports shooters using R7.
- Canon claims R7 weather resistance is roughly comparable to 90D... not as high as 7DII's. They have told us nothing about durability. The 7DII is rated to have a life span of 200,000 shutter actuations. The 90D is rated to do 120,000 (which is an increase compared to 80D, 70D, etc. which were 100,000, but also had slower max frame rate). Keeping in mind that those are 10 fps cameras, I would hope the R7 being able to do 15 fps would have a shutter rated to do 300,000 clicks.... but suspect it's not. Canon hasn't said. The 90D uses a lot of "polycarbonate" (i.e., "plastic"). It appears the R7 does too, though reviewers report it "feels solid". The 7DII uses a magnesium shell that just seems more premium quality. Oh well, I suppose that's how the lower price is possible.
- The R7 has a somewhat unique control layout. The rear dial is now moved up and around the joystick. I'm sure most folks can get accustomed to this and comfortable with it... might even like it! However, I often use two or three cameras when shooting sports and have to switch between them quickly and seamlessly. It's important to me that the cameras have very similar ergonomics and control layout, so that I'm not fumbling around when I switch cameras. I have three very compatible DSLRs right now... two APS-C and one full frame. I would be concerned trying to fit one or two R7 into the mix, due to their quite different control layout. (I also have a fourth, very compact M-series mirrorless that I use for certain things, but those don't require the same ability to switch quickly). I'm not sure why Canon felt the need to mess with already excellent ergonomics and control layout. But they did! Of course, anyone just using a single camera will be fine, once they become comfortable with the new layout. FWIW, the reviewers did note that the R7 has two dials for exposure control, where some (most? all?) of the other R-series have three. But the multi-directional key pad or other user programmable controls might mitigate this possible concern. Shooting sports, it can be helpful to keep one's eye to the viewfinder, while making adjustments by feel: aperture, shutter, ISO and Exposure Compensation... and dedicated, easy access dials are ideal for this purpose. OTOH, the electronic viewfinder of a mirrorless camera can display exposure simulation that helps a lot with those same exposure adjustments. You can even set up to toggle a histogram on and off in the viewfinder, if you wish.
- There are adapters that allow any current Canon EF and EF-S lenses you might have to be used on the R7. Many people doing this with other R-series cameras have said the lenses work just as well or possibly even better on the mirrorless camera, compared to when they were used on DSLRs. There also are some great RF lenses, if you prefer. There's a new RF 18-150mm "walk-around" kit lens being offered with R7 (adds $400 to the cost). There's also a $650 RF 100-400mm that would likely be great for daytime sports. If needed, there are also more premium RF 70-200mm f/4 and f/2.8 lenses that are more compact and lighter weight than their EF counterparts. More expensive, though.
Overall, while it's not perfect for me... R7 might be perfect for you. Only you can say. Check it out!
https://cameradecision.com/compare/Canon-EOS-R7-vs-Canon-EOS-7D-Mark-II
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1707911-REG/canon_eos_r7_mirrorless_camera.html
Jun 6, 2022 15:14:45 #
FOOD FOR THOUGHT:
First of all, the Canon EF 70-200 F/4 lens at 1.675 lbs is 1.58 lbs lighter than the EF 70-200 f/2.8 at 3.26 lbs.
Given all above on the R7 (which I have on order), it is 0.7 lbs lighter than the 7DII. If you were to go to this camera,
the RF 70-200 f/2.8 is 2.35 lbs, and the RF 70-200 f4 is the lightest at 1.5 lbs.
Camera bodies:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/compare/Canon_7D_Mark_II_vs_Canon_R7/BHitems/1081808-REG_1707911-REG
Lenses:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/compare/Canon_RF_70-200mm_f_2.8_L_IS_USM_Lens_vs_Canon_RF_70-200mm_f_4_L_IS_USM_Lens_vs_Canon_EF_70-200mm_f_2.8L_IS_III_USM_Lens_vs_Canon_EF_70-200mm_f_4L_IS_USM_Lens/BHitems/1510031-REG_1601518-REG_1414599-REG_457678-GREY
So going to an R7 and the RF f4, you would have a package ~2.5 lbs lighter than the 7DII and 70-200 f/2.8
or going to an R7 and the RF f/2.8, you would have a package ~1.6 lbs lighter than the 7DII and 70-200 f/2.8
First of all, the Canon EF 70-200 F/4 lens at 1.675 lbs is 1.58 lbs lighter than the EF 70-200 f/2.8 at 3.26 lbs.
Given all above on the R7 (which I have on order), it is 0.7 lbs lighter than the 7DII. If you were to go to this camera,
the RF 70-200 f/2.8 is 2.35 lbs, and the RF 70-200 f4 is the lightest at 1.5 lbs.
Camera bodies:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/compare/Canon_7D_Mark_II_vs_Canon_R7/BHitems/1081808-REG_1707911-REG
Lenses:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/compare/Canon_RF_70-200mm_f_2.8_L_IS_USM_Lens_vs_Canon_RF_70-200mm_f_4_L_IS_USM_Lens_vs_Canon_EF_70-200mm_f_2.8L_IS_III_USM_Lens_vs_Canon_EF_70-200mm_f_4L_IS_USM_Lens/BHitems/1510031-REG_1601518-REG_1414599-REG_457678-GREY
So going to an R7 and the RF f4, you would have a package ~2.5 lbs lighter than the 7DII and 70-200 f/2.8
or going to an R7 and the RF f/2.8, you would have a package ~1.6 lbs lighter than the 7DII and 70-200 f/2.8
Jun 6, 2022 18:52:18 #
Everyone has already given good summaries. The idea of the RF versions of the 70-200 zooms are new designs for the mirrorless versions.
Jun 6, 2022 19:10:21 #
I am sure the new Canon mirrorless would outperform the 7D ii but I don't think the combo would significantly lighter.
Jun 6, 2022 23:50:56 #
I know you’re a Canon owner (and so am I), but I would just mention that when I was faced with this issue shooting sports, I bought a Fuji X-T2/X-T4 and their excellent 50-140 f2.8. (75-210 equivalent). Weighs half what the Canon 5D4 and 70-200 f2.8 weighs. The only downside is a stop worse low light/high ISO performance. Solved the problem for me.
Jun 7, 2022 06:33:20 #
Nana65 wrote:
I currently shoot with a Canon DSLR 7D Mark ii and... (show quote)
R7 with RF 70-200mm f2.8 and is much smaller, lighter, faster focus, and sharper.
Jun 7, 2022 07:29:48 #
rbtree wrote:
I own an R5 and 7D II. Love both. The R5 is about 200 grams lighter (based on this comparison--R vs 7D https://cameradecision.com/compare/Canon-EOS-R-vs-Canon-EOS-7D
And, if you're awash with cash, the RF 70-200 f/2.8 is compact and a lot lighter than the EF version. As the R bodies have somewhat improved low light performance, you could also consider the RF 70-200 f/4....
And, if you're awash with cash, the RF 70-200 f/2.8 is compact and a lot lighter than the EF version. As the R bodies have somewhat improved low light performance, you could also consider the RF 70-200 f/4....
He owns the 7DII not the 7D. Plus you are comparing it with the R camera which is older than what's available now.
Jun 7, 2022 08:41:57 #
"I tried the Olympus OM-D camera but it just doesn't feel right and the menu settings are not as easy for me to navigate as the Canon menu. And I just haven't been getting the quality of photo I've gotten from my current setup."
I know that you are looking into Canon for your mirrorless needs but I am curious about your comments regarding the OM system. I am 86 years old and the OM menu for me is not intimidating, on the contrary, I find it easy to navigate.
What lens were you using with the OM camera? I find Olympus optics among the best I have ever used. Enlargements I have made from OM optics show all fine details and sharpness. Just to give you an example, the Zuiko 12-40 f2.8 Pro is an excellent walk around lens, very well constructed, sharp and not that heavy. Right now the choice of lenses for OM cameras is better than ever since all Panasonic optics can be fit to OM bodies and that includes Leica lenses.
The OM system is what I use and I am pleased with the results I get from it.
I know that you are looking into Canon for your mirrorless needs but I am curious about your comments regarding the OM system. I am 86 years old and the OM menu for me is not intimidating, on the contrary, I find it easy to navigate.
What lens were you using with the OM camera? I find Olympus optics among the best I have ever used. Enlargements I have made from OM optics show all fine details and sharpness. Just to give you an example, the Zuiko 12-40 f2.8 Pro is an excellent walk around lens, very well constructed, sharp and not that heavy. Right now the choice of lenses for OM cameras is better than ever since all Panasonic optics can be fit to OM bodies and that includes Leica lenses.
The OM system is what I use and I am pleased with the results I get from it.
Jun 7, 2022 09:13:31 #
7DII + EF 70-200 2.8L= 5.26lbs
R7 + RF 70-200L= 3.7lbs
Between the RF & EF 70-200 2.8L I've read the RF is minimally sharper that the EF but it is more compact.
Price for R7 & RF 70-200 2.8L = $4300.00 plus tax with a saving of 1.5 lbs. in the combination. Only you can be the judge as to whether that amount of money is worth the 1.5 lbs. saving.
R7 + RF 70-200L= 3.7lbs
Between the RF & EF 70-200 2.8L I've read the RF is minimally sharper that the EF but it is more compact.
Price for R7 & RF 70-200 2.8L = $4300.00 plus tax with a saving of 1.5 lbs. in the combination. Only you can be the judge as to whether that amount of money is worth the 1.5 lbs. saving.
Jun 7, 2022 09:22:07 #
amfoto1
Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA
BebuLamar wrote:
I am sure the new Canon mirrorless would outperform the 7D ii but I don't think the combo would significantly lighter.
7D Mark II... 32 oz.
EF 70-200mm f/2.8... 52 oz.
Total... 84 oz.
EOS R7.... 22 oz.
RF 70-200mm f/2.8... 38 oz.
Total... 60 oz.
That's over a 28% weight reduction. I don't know about you, but I think that's pretty significant.
There are other opportunities to reduce weight.
EF 100-400mm L II lens... 58 oz. ($2400)
RF 100-500mm L lens... 48 oz. ($2900)
RF 100-400mm... 22 oz. (not an L, but only $650)
Jun 7, 2022 09:58:49 #
A bunch of folks have proposed the R7 and RF 70-200 f/2.8 or even lighter f/4 L variants keeping you in the Canon ecosystem, if that’s the goal. I really don’t see how you could go wrong.
Jun 7, 2022 10:04:59 #
Nana65 wrote:
I currently shoot with a Canon DSLR 7D Mark ii and... (show quote)
For lighter weight consider 70-200 f4 L and 70-300 IS II nano - not sure how low light you may be in and for the NEED of f2.8 ??
Finally, skip M4/3 and consider the Sony RX10m4 if you are serious about weight. The Sony performs as good as or better than my 80D and 70-300 nano.......yes, not a misprint - BETTER !
RX10 = 2.4 lbs = 2lbs 5 oz total, 37 oz., or 1.1 kg. .......I just wish we could ALL use the same weight units basis ! $1700 - IF you can find one .....
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