A DX Body Does Not Increase The "Reach" Of An FX Lens - Change My Mind (Page 11): It's a forum, it happens, and will continue to do so without cessation. There will always be people...

Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States

larryepage wrote:

I am very much in favor of discussions about every... (show quote)

It's a forum, it happens, and will continue to do so without cessation. There will always be people who disagree, don't understand, and believe their opinions are gospel. Human nature.
Eliminating any particular word(s) will not correct the problem.

BlackRipleyDog

Drbobcameraguy wrote:

I agree with you but think about this. If we have an Fx and Dx camera both of 12 megapixels which one can make a better crop? The DX has 12 megapixels to crop from the FX starts at a disadvantage because it has only 12 megapixels and has to crop just to equal the DX camera photo. Think about that

But we are talking about something as subjective as IQ. I can overlay a D300 image at 12mpxl DX over a D700 image at 12mpxl FX. The D300 image is showing the same magnification natively as the D700 image. A DX sensor does not behave as a 1.5x teleconverter on the FX lens. That has been the claim all along when the term "Reach" is used.
It is just same as projecting an image onto a post card and then throwing white business card on top of the post card. Just a smaller area and a tighter angle-of view.

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

BebuLamar wrote:

So what is reach?

"One property in a camera system that is much desired is ‘reach’ – the ability to render an image of a distant object. The more distant an object the camera can pull in, the greater its reach. For subjects such as birds and sport, reach is obviously a great virtue." https://www.whatdigitalcamera.com/technology_guides/advanced-technology-guide-reaching-for-your-goals-85682#:~:text=One%20property%20in%20a%20camera,in%2C%20the%20greater%20its%20reach.

Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States

BlackRipleyDog wrote:

...
...
It is just same as projecting an image onto a post card and then throwing white business card on top of the post card. Just a smaller area and a tighter angle-of view.

Oh, so simple, eh?

But we can make it much more complicated by discussing the texture of the business card.

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

BlackRipleyDog wrote:

But we are talking about something as subjective as IQ. I can overlay a D300 image at 12mpxl DX over a D700 image at 12mpxl FX. The D300 image is showing the same magnification natively as the D700 image.

However the the DX camera is placing 1.5x more pixels on the subject than the FX camera and that produces a noticeable improvement in IQ when the images are enlarged.

BlackRipleyDog wrote:

A DX sensor does not behave as a 1.5x teleconverter on the FX lens. That has been the claim all along when the term "Reach" is used.

No. That has not been the claim all along. That's you setting up a strawman for yourself to attack.

BlackRipleyDog wrote:

It is just same as projecting an image onto a post card and then throwing white business card on top of the post card. Just a smaller area and a tighter angle-of view.

No, it's more than that. It's getting a better image if the business card is recording more detail per unit area than the postcard.

BlackRipleyDog

Ysarex wrote:

No, it's more than that. It's getting a better image if the business card is recording more detail per unit area than the postcard.

Prove that premise with a D500 and a D850.

Drbobcameraguy Loc: Eaton Ohio

BebuLamar wrote:

So what is reach?

Well depends on how or how much you want to dive into it. To me reach is what I do when I get a Cookie. Lol. I honestly can't give you a PERFECT example of the definition. It is honestly something most of us seem to want or need more of. I have a D500 and a 300-800mm f5.6 I used to have a D3s also. I found that I used the D500 almost exclusively because of the extra pixels and the ability to crop more. So to answer your question" What is reach" it depends on alot of variables.

Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States

Ysarex wrote:

No, it's more than that. It's getting a better image if the business card is recording more detail per unit area than the postcard.

????

Same detail, simply caught in smaller area.
The difference would be in enlarging the business card image to be the same size as the postcard, an after the fact item, a separate scenario from what is observed in the camera.

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

BlackRipleyDog wrote:

Prove that premise with a D500 and a D850.

That's already been addressed many pages ago if you read your thread: "'Reach' is pixel density and pixel density is real. If you have a real difference in pixel density then 'DX reach' is real. If not then 'DX reach' doesn't exist. The reason it comes up with regularity is because it is real for many photographers who have easier access to high pixel density DX cameras." https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-734935-4.html#13057282

This does prove that premise: https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-734935-6.html#13058291

For photographers who get involved in trying to pick up some additional "reach" it really is a pragmatic problem and a money problem. Nikon is selling both the Z7ii and Z6ii. People are buying both. A Z6ii owner who starts to shoot more sports or wildlife may find that they're not getting the "reach" they'd like and the easiest and least expensive way to address that may be to add a higher pixel density DX body. That will increase the "reach" of their lenses.

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

Longshadow wrote:

????

Same detail, simply caught in smaller area.

No. More fine detail captured.

Longshadow wrote:

The difference would be in enlarging the business card image to be the same size as the postcard, an after the fact item, a separate scenario from what is observed in the camera.

srt101fan

General comment:
Some people adopt the attitude that "I'll never convince you; you'll never convince me; therefore there's no sense talking about it..."

Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States

Ysarex wrote:

No. More fine detail captured.

????

So how is there more detail captured? Nothing has changed in the projected image (on the postcard) by sticking a smaller "screen" (business card) in front of the postcard. Still the same image detail, just a smaller viewing screen.

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

Longshadow wrote:

????

So how is there more detail captured? Nothing has changed in the projected image (on the postcard) by sticking a smaller "screen" (business card) in front of the postcard. Still the same image detail, just a smaller viewing screen.

It's still the same lens projection but it's not a screen it's recording media. Here you can use a film analogy. With the same lens on the camera an ISO 1600 35mm film will record less fine detail than an ISO 32 35mm film. That finer grain film has a higher resolving power. Same is true for increased pixel density sensors.

Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States

Ysarex wrote:

It's still the same lens projection but it's not a screen it's recording media. Here you can use a film analogy. With the same lens on the camera an ISO 1600 35mm film will record less fine detail than an ISO 32 35mm film. That finer grain film has a higher resolving power. Same is true for increased pixel density.

No longer talking about the basic image difference between the two formats, what one sees?
Maybe we should also include the pixel difference between monitors and the texture of the paper if printed.

Ysarex Loc: St. Louis

Longshadow wrote:

No longer talking about the basic image difference between the two formats, what one sees?

Of course we are, but we're talking about the final image one sees -- both printed to same size or displayed to same size.

Longshadow wrote:

Maybe we should also include the pixel difference between monitors and the texture of the paper if printed.

Again it's really a pragmatic and economic problem. There's a bird on a branch on the other side of the river. You can't cross the river. You want to photograph the bird and you need "reach" to do that. You put the longest lens you've got (w/tele-converter) on your Nikon Z6ii and take the photo. Bird is too small in the photo and you crop it. IQ could be better -- unfortunately you cropped too much. The bird will be there when you go back what can you do?

Buy a longer lens. Many thousands $$$$
Buy a Z7ii body. Pushing 3 thousand.
Buy a D5600 body. Under a thousand.

The extended reach from the higher pixel density DX body is real.