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Mar 4, 2022 11:11:26   #
clixpix Loc: Surprise, Arizona
 
Tom:

Good luck on you new photo venture with the wedding dresses. All the advice you received are good ones. However I did not see any consideration on your pricing to include an assistant to help with the shooting the photos. Are you going to use some assistant, will their payment be part of your price or will their fee be negotiated.

In negotiating the use rights you may want to be able to use the photos in your own advertising. Will the client be getting the model releases? If not, you many want to get some releases of your own.

Good luck and good shooting.

Regards






autofocus wrote:
Always true Paul, and surely a good question to ask. Expectations need to be set up front. There's always that fine line between what you, the photographer thinks it's worth, and that of what the customer/buyer of the product thinks. Sometimes when a fair price can't be agreed upon it's just as well to walk from the job. Especially if you sense that the customer doesn't see the value of the service or product you are providing, and a customer like that can make your life miserable should you decide to take the job.
Always true Paul, and surely a good question to as... (show quote)

Reply
Mar 4, 2022 18:18:09   #
Tom Kitoko
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
There's some good comments so far. Reading your responses, here are some issues to consider / address in a quick written agreement:

Total price
Expected hours to be shooting, in hour ranges, such as 2-4 hours - cost $x; 4-6 hours, cost $y, so forth
Delivery timeline - initial drafts, final edits / finished images, specified by estimated dates, or days following shoot
Delivery format - JPEG, upload website, physical media, email transfer, etc
Image ownership - are you hired to shot images for them for images they own? Or, are you licensing images you own for their uses?
Payment schedule - all up front? Half now, half on delivery? Other? Specify how payment will be made too.

Personally, it sounds like they're hiring you to shoot for them, as in they own the results. If this is the situation, you should state this expectation as well as specifying how you can use the resulting images too, such as social media, personal website / portfolio, etc. As a hired photography, just cover the technical logistics, deadlines from the list above and set a total price, paid 50/50 to start and upon delivery, or a lumpsum at the end. Also, put-in other comments covering the scope of your work being the photography, not the dress selection and such, maybe covering where the shoot occurs, as in, at one place of their choosing / date with a specific start time.

Think about 70 dresses, if you waited for the preparations and shot maybe 5 / 10 versions of each for 15-minutes waiting and then shooting, that's 17-hours, likely a multiday event if done sequentially. If all the dresses were ready, it still might be a 5-minute average that would be 6 hours if working that slow and deliberate. Take your total shooting time and allow the same duration to process and prepare the images in determining a turnaround deadline.

Outside the technical logistics, seek to confirm what shots they want. I'd think a full-body frontal, maybe a side / three-quarter full length view, as well as one or more detailed / close-up shots, especially the shoulders and neck-line. Do they want all in a portrait aspect? Mixed landscape, portrait and square? What ratio? 1x1, 3x2, 5x4, 19:6, other?
There's some good comments so far. Reading your re... (show quote)


CHG_CANON,
Hello Paul, Thank you for the valuable information, a lot of information to cover. I am meeting with the customer Monday for further discussion to confirm exactly what they expect and what I have to offer.
I have had a previous conversation with the customer and I really don’t think they know what they want except pictures to upload to Esty so they can sell these dresses. I’m thinking initial set up, time to shoot, hopefully limited editing, full length view, digital copy, and now that you mentioned it:
“specifying how you can use the resulting images too, such as social media, personal website / portfolio, etc.” This is a great suggestion for a future. Thank you and enjoy a great day and wonderful day!

Reply
Mar 4, 2022 18:30:50   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
Tom Kitoko wrote:
CHG_CANON,
Hello Paul, Thank you for the valuable information, a lot of information to cover. I am meeting with the customer Monday for further discussion to confirm exactly what they expect and what I have to offer.
I have had a previous conversation with the customer and I really don’t think they know what they want except pictures to upload to Esty so they can sell these dresses. I’m thinking initial set up, time to shoot, hopefully limited editing, full length view, digital copy, and now that you mentioned it:
“specifying how you can use the resulting images too, such as social media, personal website / portfolio, etc.” This is a great suggestion for a future. Thank you and enjoy a great day and wonderful day!
CHG_CANON, br Hello Paul, Thank you for the valua... (show quote)


Go on etsy and look at the examples. This gives you a target, especially from wedding dresses displayed on mannequins. You'll need images with enough pixel resolution to click into the details, but still nothing more than 2048px on the long side. Note the various views of each dress, and a watermark for each style name. Assure you have these tools handy in your toolbox.

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Mar 4, 2022 19:01:23   #
Tom Kitoko
 
Autofocus,
A lot of good points here,” include no rights to do any further edits to your images” Yes, I’m doing the editing myself, I really don’t want them trying to edit my work. I’ll be up front with them on that as well as your other great information. Thank you for responding and enjoy a great and wonderful day!

Reply
Mar 4, 2022 19:37:14   #
Tom Kitoko
 
Clixpix
Hello, that’s a good point and perhaps sometimes overlooked, assistants are not free labor. The customer is taking care of all the set up regarding the dresses and supplying their own assistant(s) for changing the dresses. I’ll be setting up a small amount of lighting and taking the photos and won’t require assistance.

I won’t be requiring a model release, they are dressing mannequins. I’ll add this information to my notes for future references. As far as my own advertising is concerned, I haven’t thought about it except to add this to a portfolio I’m trying to build. Who knows where this will take me??? Photography is an adventure!

Thank you for responding and enjoy a great and wonderful day!

Reply
Mar 4, 2022 19:49:07   #
Tom Kitoko
 
Hello Paul,

Another great point of wisdom, I’ll have to do my research on that. The view of the picture is going to make or break the sale. I’m not the dress seller but I’m sure the customer will be delighted to show a better product. I appreciate this information. Enjoy a great and wonderful day.

Reply
Mar 4, 2022 20:03:24   #
Tom Kitoko
 
kenArchi wrote:
I used to charge by the half or full day.
When I learned PP there was less time on the job and more photos to process. In 2 hours we did 20 photos. Used to be only five or six.
Now I charge per photo.


Hello kenArchi,
I’m hoping to get the best shots and minimize post time. Post is not good for me, I’m a pixel peeper, my own worst enemy ha ha… Thank for the response and enjoy a great and wonderful day.

Reply
 
 
Mar 4, 2022 20:11:47   #
Gene51 Loc: Yonkers, NY, now in LSD (LowerSlowerDelaware)
 
Tom Kitoko wrote:
Hello Gene51,

This is quite an eye opener, actually, I’m just starting out in this field of photography, I normally shoot landscapes but someone gave me this opportunity. These are a lot of things to consider and a wealth of information.

Thank you so much for responding, enjoy a great and wonderful day.


It really is a lot to unpack - but critical to your success. Everyone thinks that commercial photography just requires shooting skills. Taking pictures is about 20% of it. The other 80% is client management, unimpeachable customer service, how to anticipate disasters and plan for them (equipment and staff redundancy, contingency plans etc), and how to say no to a job you are not qualified for. Sorry for my ominous tone, but I would have given anything to have heard this when I got started back in the late 60s. Good luck with this. Something worth considering is handing this off to a pro, and ask to be an assistant in return for the referral. You will learn an amazing bunch of stuff about the profession, and you will likely have a very happy customer that understands that you were looking out for their best interest.

Reply
Mar 4, 2022 20:19:25   #
BArthur3
 
One thing that seems to be minimally covered here is post-processing. You state it's not your forte but once your session output is seen it might become a major issue, meaning more time/expense. We all work to get it right, right out of camera but your results may say pp-time! Be sure to cover/consider what pp time and effort might come into call.

Reply
Mar 4, 2022 21:13:00   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
Truthfully, NOBODY can tell you what to charge! Your charge must be based on your overhead, costs of sales, your level of competence in photography, and the profit margin you must establish whereby you can be reimbursed for yoor costs and materials and earn a profit for your business or yourself. Another factor usage is the number of catalogues that are going to be distributed and where yo image will show up.

Concerns about copyright and usage get are valid but many "bridal fashion" shoots are not for long-term usage. Style and modes change from season to season in man cases.

If are actually considering going into business, a solid business plan shod be a prerequisite to establishing prices. It is generally NOT a good business practice to ask inquire about the cleit's budget is and try to squeeze into it.

Just out of curiosity- Why mannequins- what not live models. Effenceicy wise, it takes less time for the couturiers to dress models as you shoot rather than pin-fitting dresses, and dressing and undressing mannequins. If I know how to pose models to emphasize the lines of a dress, drape gowns and trains, and arrange veils and flowers you are ahead of things. Also, do you know how to light and bring out fine detail in weddings gowns?- they can present many issues- white on white, embroidery, lace, thin tulle veil material etc.

Reply
Mar 4, 2022 21:43:06   #
Tom Kitoko
 
Gene51 wrote:
It really is a lot to unpack - but critical to your success. Everyone thinks that commercial photography just requires shooting skills. Taking pictures is about 20% of it. The other 80% is client management, unimpeachable customer service, how to anticipate disasters and plan for them (equipment and staff redundancy, contingency plans etc), and how to say no to a job you are not qualified for. Sorry for my ominous tone, but I would have given anything to have heard this when I got started back in the late 60s. Good luck with this. Something worth considering is handing this off to a pro, and ask to be an assistant in return for the referral. You will learn an amazing bunch of stuff about the profession, and you will likely have a very happy customer that understands that you were looking out for their best interest.
It really is a lot to unpack - but critical to you... (show quote)


Hello Gene51

Thank you for your comments and great information, this shows that you care. No need to apologize, if I were doing this project for a large corporation or something bigger than it is I wouldn’t even have considered doing this. Yes, customer service is a priority along with people management, this is a single person operation, that will have one assistant that is a long-time friend and accomplished artist who recommend me for this opportunity. I don’t think she would have recommended me if she wasn’t confident in my work and personality. I’m sure this will go well.

Again, thank you for your concern, I respect that you are a person looking out for a fellow photographer and I’m sure that many people reading this, including myself will value your response.

As I always say: Enjoy a great and wonderful day.

Reply
 
 
Mar 4, 2022 21:49:58   #
autofocus Loc: North Central Connecticut
 
Tom Kitoko wrote:
Autofocus,
A lot of good points here,” include no rights to do any further edits to your images” Yes, I’m doing the editing myself, I really don’t want them trying to edit my work. I’ll be up front with them on that as well as your other great information. Thank you for responding and enjoy a great and wonderful day!


I know little, or next to nothing has been said about exposure and lighting, but you did say you will use some light(s) Obviously, I assume most or all the dresses will be white, and whites can be very tricky, not enough and the whites look gray, too much and you'll blow out the details. And surely, the details in the wedding dresses are critical, and must be perfectly lit, and perfectly clear. I don't know what kind of lights you'll be using, but you'd want a large light source, even bouncing off a white wall or reflector behind you can work nicely. This will help distribute the light evenly without hot spots, or blown out areas. I shoot with speedlights a lot on jobs, and almost always I'm bouncing into white reflective umbrellas. And sometimes all you need is half power, or even less...just a pop of light is often enough. I would not recommend using a hard, unmodified light source, such as direct flash. If I were shooting this job I'd be going in with a mental starting point as far as my exposures, maybe the following: f/6-3 or f/7.1 to maximize DOF on the details, ~ 125 second, and one or two speedlights bouncing into the umbrellas, set at the starting point of half power each. Grab your one or two test shots, check the histogram, and just adjust your light(s) up or down on power as needed. (or move them in or out slightly until you're happy with what you see) Once you dial that in, and as long as you maintain the same distance of the light source to the subjects all the rest should be easy.

Reply
Mar 4, 2022 22:24:14   #
Tom Kitoko
 
BArthur3 wrote:
One thing that seems to be minimally covered here is post-processing. You state it's not your forte but once your session output is seen it might become a major issue, meaning more time/expense. We all work to get it right, right out of camera but your results may say pp-time! Be sure to cover/consider what pp time and effort might come into call.


BArthur3,
Hello and thank you for your response. Post-processing, don’t you just love it? Believe it or not, before I found this forum I would see all these great photo images and wonder how they got them. I never heard of post processing. I would go out and try to master getting the best shots and try to be as good as all the photographers I would see. I would go practice, practice, and more practice almost every day taking all these pictures until I found out there secret, post-processing. I have to look back and laugh now.

As far as Post, this is one thing for sure that I let the customer know up front what my time frame is. I’ve experienced and learned from this issue in the past. My answer might be: Do you want quality or quantity?

Enjoy a great and wonderful day.

Reply
Mar 5, 2022 00:06:16   #
Tom Kitoko
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
Truthfully, NOBODY can tell you what to charge! Your charge must be based on your overhead, costs of sales, your level of competence in photography, and the profit margin you must establish whereby you can be reimbursed for yoor costs and materials and earn a profit for your business or yourself. Another factor usage is the number of catalogues that are going to be distributed and where yo image will show up.

Concerns about copyright and usage get are valid but many "bridal fashion" shoots are not for long-term usage. Style and modes change from season to season in man cases.

If are actually considering going into business, a solid business plan shod be a prerequisite to establishing prices. It is generally NOT a good business practice to ask inquire about the cleit's budget is and try to squeeze into it.

Just out of curiosity- Why mannequins- what not live models. Effenceicy wise, it takes less time for the couturiers to dress models as you shoot rather than pin-fitting dresses, and dressing and undressing mannequins. If I know how to pose models to emphasize the lines of a dress, drape gowns and trains, and arrange veils and flowers you are ahead of things. Also, do you know how to light and bring out fine detail in weddings gowns?- they can present many issues- white on white, embroidery, lace, thin tulle veil material etc.
Truthfully, NOBODY can tell you what to charge! Y... (show quote)


E.L.. Shapiro,

Hello and thank you for taking your time to respond, you always have valuable information. I was asking to get a price range so that I could be competitive in pricing. The pricing in one area may be higher or lower depending the area of the county.
To satisfy your curiosity, the reason the customer wanted to use mannequins is because that’s all she has to work with. This is not a large business, it’s a lady that does business on Etsy and must be doing well as she is making enough to rent a suite in a building complex and wants to hire me for this occasion.
At this time while I was responding to you I received a text message; the customer has decided to cancel for whatever reason.
Oh well, that’s life in the big city! Regarding the lighting, very interesting, I’m one of the ones that subscribed to your lighting page, I’ll see you there. Again, Thank you for responding and enjoy a great and wonderful evening.

Reply
Mar 5, 2022 00:40:49   #
Tom Kitoko
 
autofocus wrote:
I know little, or next to nothing has been said about exposure and lighting, but you did say you will use some light(s) Obviously, I assume most or all the dresses will be white, and whites can be very tricky, not enough and the whites look gray, too much and you'll blow out the details. And surely, the details in the wedding dresses are critical, and must be perfectly lit, and perfectly clear. I don't know what kind of lights you'll be using, but you'd want a large light source, even bouncing off a white wall or reflector behind you can work nicely. This will help distribute the light evenly without hot spots, or blown out areas. I shoot with speedlights a lot on jobs, and almost always I'm bouncing into white reflective umbrellas. And sometimes all you need is half power, or even less...just a pop of light is often enough. I would not recommend using a hard, unmodified light source, such as direct flash. If I were shooting this job I'd be going in with a mental starting point as far as my exposures, maybe the following: f/6-3 or f/7.1 to maximize DOF on the details, ~ 125 second, and one or two speedlights bouncing into the umbrellas, set at the starting point of half power each. Grab your one or two test shots, check the histogram, and just adjust your light(s) up or down on power as needed. (or move them in or out slightly until you're happy with what you see) Once you dial that in, and as long as you maintain the same distance of the light source to the subjects all the rest should be easy.
I know little, or next to nothing has been said ab... (show quote)


Autofocus,

Hello and thank you for responding again, I was recently informed via text that at this time the person has decide to cancel, however this information is valuable, I can always use more lighting tips. I was thinking of using a 48” defused octabox, a reflector, and maybe a translucent shoot through umbrella. I have two Godox AD200 Pro’s and a Canon 270EXII with a dome diffuser. They are not the super powers of lighting but they do well for now. This is really good advice and I thank you for sharing. I’ll be adding this information to my toolbox for future reference.

Enjoy a great and wonderful day.

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