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Feb 21, 2022 18:46:01   #
Grahame Loc: Fiji
 
TriX wrote:
Changing contrast has no effect on blown highlights. Once the camera’s A/D’s max DR is saturated, data beyond that level is lost - period. Only reducing exposure to within the DR of the A/D can address this issue. basic digital technique.


Exactly, again.

The suggestion that dialing down 'contrast' in camera at the point of capture being a solution to not getting those blown highlights on the duck (or anything) was simply poor advice. On my camera full adjustment of 'contrast' - to + makes absolutely no difference to the exposure values, hence what the sensor gets and what is blown.

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Feb 21, 2022 18:52:50   #
OldSchool-WI Loc: Brandon, Wisconsin 53919
 
E.L.. Shapiro wrote:
Like any other aspect of photography, where dynamic range or the lack thereof is concerned, there is not a "one method fits all" method. There are many variables starting off with the sensor in yo camera, the light conditions, the subject you are shootg and what you expect as a find viewable product or print.
As others have suggested TESTING and gettg know your equipment and how to take control over the variety of conditions that you shoot in and the subjects you are photographing.

Those who work with film may remember the basics of using transparency films with very little latitude. You are exposed to the highlights. Various films had different tolerances and ranges and we could make mirror processing variations to increase or decrease contrast. Negative films had more latitude and many adopted the method of exposing for the shadows and printing down for the highlights, however, you still had to understand the characteristic curve of the film in order to maintain range. The Zone System entailed considering processing strategies while shooting.

Nowadays, in digital, we don't need to stock all kids of the film with different characteristics. We do not have to carry multiple cameras or strip and reload the camera if we change a strategy "mid-roll" so to speak. All we need to do is fully understand the attributes and limitations of our cameras, how to make precision use of the built-in meter systems, and include post-processg strategies as you shoot.

If you shot static subjects, there is more time to make several variations of any given shot and try different post-processing scenarios. If you shoot lots of wildlife, sports, photojournalism, street photography, or even portraiture. you will need to develop a serious, let's call them pre-sets. Lile, what to do with a penguin in bright sunlight against white snow as opposed to a pastel-coloured flower on an overcast day.

Of course, it is great to do the math, go by the numbers, and understand the theory, however, it is surprising how instinctivnay and quickly you will arrive at ideal exposure and successful result. The key is testing and practice.
Like any other aspect of photography, where dynami... (show quote)


____________________________
With film the hard and fast rule was: "exposure is density---development is contrast."------------------

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Feb 21, 2022 18:58:24   #
OldSchool-WI Loc: Brandon, Wisconsin 53919
 
Grahame wrote:
Exactly, again.

The suggestion that dialing down 'contrast' in camera at the point of capture being a solution to not getting those blown highlights on the duck (or anything) was simply poor advice. On my camera full adjustment of 'contrast' - to + makes absolutely no difference to the exposure values, hence what the sensor gets and what is blown.


__________________________________
That is not the purpose of "dialing back contrast" i.e. changing the exposure. Why should it be. But higher contrast means a shorter gray scale and means brighter blown wedding dress and monolithic black tux.---Grahame---should I repeat that once again?-------------

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Feb 21, 2022 19:02:29   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
OldSchool-WI wrote:
__________________________________
That is not the purpose of "dialing back contrast" i.e. changing the exposure. Why should it be. But higher contrast means a shorter gray scale and means brighter blown wedding dress and monolithic black tux.---Grahame---should I repeat that once again?-------------


You are not understanding the issue. You can’t fix this problem with changing contrast - there is NO data to show in the blown out section and NOTHING you can do will make it magically reappear.

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Feb 21, 2022 19:45:09   #
Grahame Loc: Fiji
 
TriX wrote:
You are not understanding the issue. You can’t fix this problem with changing contrast - there is NO data to show in the blown out section and NOTHING you can do will make it magically reappear.


Exactly, yet again.

Altering contrast curves simply redistributes a problem (no data) that remains there. No amount of twisting things alters the fact that the initial statement was very poor advice and it's obvious that he now realizes this and we see the same old diversionary tactics.

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Feb 21, 2022 20:23:26   #
boomboom Loc: Stow, Ohio
 
billnikon wrote:
Since you want to do this before postprocessing here is my suggestion.
First, take a meter reading off grass or green leaves, they will reflect about the same as a gray card (18%) make sure the sun striking the grass is the same as is striking the bird, then, reduce your exposure by 2 stops to 3 stops, feather detail should be retained.


Thanks for your input. I will give some of your suggestions a try. Thanks

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Feb 21, 2022 21:25:50   #
Canisdirus
 
OldSchool-WI wrote:
_________________________
You can always increase saturation if you must later. But merely exposing for the white---like a wedding photographer for the white dress could easily lose the shadow detail which is just as important but maybe not noticeable since it was never captured in the first place---but dialing back contrast could save both highlights anc shadows and bring them into more steps in the gray scale--so my comment IS good advice. Experiment.--------(of course for quality and adaptability, always shoot raw---to which I do agree with you.-----------
_________________________ br You can always incre... (show quote)


Dialing back contrast only reduces the quality you can get from any image you take that way.

It is almost always better to nip things in the bud as you are shooting...rather than trying to salvage with PP what you screwed up in the first place.
Why I said...this way...you are working against yourself.

Low iso is the correct answer...shutter as slow as you can get away with would be the second setup.
ALWAYS shoot in RAW...always.
Difficult conditions and shooting in JPEG...noob move that will hold you back.

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Feb 21, 2022 22:27:11   #
boomboom Loc: Stow, Ohio
 
Canisdirus wrote:
Dialing back contrast only reduces the quality you can get from any image you take that way.

It is almost always better to nip things in the bud as you are shooting...rather than trying to salvage with PP what you screwed up in the first place.
Why I said...this way...you are working against yourself.

Low iso is the correct answer...shutter as slow as you can get away with would be the second setup.
ALWAYS shoot in RAW...always.
Difficult conditions and shooting in JPEG...noob move that will hold you back.
Dialing back contrast only reduces the quality you... (show quote)


Thanks for the advice. Yes, I do shoot in jpeg so I may not be able to do much about this white blowout, but I do appreciate the advice.

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Feb 22, 2022 07:50:13   #
Canisdirus
 
boomboom wrote:
Thanks for the advice. Yes, I do shoot in jpeg so I may not be able to do much about this white blowout, but I do appreciate the advice.


Try RAW if you have the option...you will see a difference right off.
Best of luck!

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Feb 22, 2022 08:06:05   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
boomboom wrote:
Thanks for the advice. Yes, I do shoot in jpeg so I may not be able to do much about this white blowout, but I do appreciate the advice.


Most cameras offer some setup options when using JPEG. They are rooted in a time when memory was more expensive. The first choice is around how much resolution you are capturing. Make sure that you are saving full resolution images. The second is around how much compression you are directing the camera to do when it saves your files. Choose the minimum amount of compression. Check your camera's manual for details, but you are probably looking for wording like "Fine/Large" images.

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Feb 22, 2022 08:35:51   #
cactuspic Loc: Dallas, TX
 
Sometimes there is a tradeoff when shooting ducks: often near frontal lighting emphasizes iridescence on their head while it flattens edge detail on their many of their feathers. Moreover their contrast range makes them an exposure nightmare (lightmare?). You have deep darks and brilliant whites. To the extent you can, particularly if shooting with most Canon cameras, dial down your ISO to its lowest setting consistent with the shutter speed you need to get sharp image. This will give you your best dynamic range. Then take a series of test shots to see where the blinkies stop. I am usually shooting under the evaluative meter setting by 2/3rds to 2 stops. You may have to raise your shadows in post. Chimp often. Shooting in RAW in thse difficult situations may mean the difference between getting the image and almost getting it.

Irwin

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Feb 22, 2022 10:03:02   #
boomboom Loc: Stow, Ohio
 
cactuspic wrote:
Sometimes there is a tradeoff when shooting ducks: often near frontal lighting emphasizes iridescence on their head while it flattens edge detail on their many of their feathers. Moreover their contrast range makes them an exposure nightmare (lightmare?). You have deep darks and brilliant whites. To the extent you can, particularly if shooting with most Canon cameras, dial down your ISO to its lowest setting consistent with the shutter speed you need to get sharp image. This will give you your best dynamic range. Then take a series of test shots to see where the blinkies stop. I am usually shooting under the evaluative meter setting by 2/3rds to 2 stops. You may have to raise your shadows in post. Chimp often. Shooting in RAW in thse difficult situations may mean the difference between getting the image and almost getting it.

Irwin
Sometimes there is a tradeoff when shooting ducks:... (show quote)


That is well put. Your input is much appreciated and look forward to trying a few of the suggestions. Thanks again.

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Feb 22, 2022 10:04:21   #
boomboom Loc: Stow, Ohio
 
larryepage wrote:
Most cameras offer some setup options when using JPEG. They are rooted in a time when memory was more expensive. The first choice is around how much resolution you are capturing. Make sure that you are saving full resolution images. The second is around how much compression you are directing the camera to do when it saves your files. Choose the minimum amount of compression. Check your camera's manual for details, but you are probably looking for wording like "Fine/Large" images.


Thanks much for your advice. I will do some checking and experimenting.

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Mar 19, 2022 15:00:50   #
Nickaroo
 
OldSchool-WI wrote:
My answer is not as detailed: Cut the contrast setting on your camera if you sense an extreme need for both blacks and whites and bring up just what you need in reconstituting the final from raw. Also it would work with JPEGs since at lower contrast--more detail would also show in the white. In your duck the dark feathers seem natural while, as you say the whites are blown. If you dial down the overall exposure,leaving the contrast--the dark feathers with become more totally black or a bad effect, also---so just dial back the contrast on the camera body.----ew
My answer is not as detailed: Cut the contrast se... (show quote)


Sorry for the late response as I have been doing some Commercials for G.M. on the New EV Trucks that are coming out, worked for my Friend's Commercial Advertising Firm here in Michigan and for the Super Bowl Ad, let's just say that our Team made the cut. So doing that and Photog work at my Alma Mater, University od Michigan Football and Basketball, G.M. combined us with another very talented crew, so We Had to set every Photog and Video Team up so we would not botch it up. In fact, another Commercial with the Beautiful Blue EV Truck came out and we nailed that one also and I just happened to see it on CNBC a week ago. I'm not to amped up as I also was Hospitalized due to an incurable Lung Disease and was just released yesterday. But, I noticed where you told the OP to adjust His Contrast in His Camera Body? I have never found that sliding the Sliders In-Camera to be very cooperative, even if it is shot in JPEG and if the OP is shooting in JPEG, then maybe He should shoot in RAW+JPEG FINE, and then adjust everything in Post. I learned the hard way by trying it for the Lesson to be taught. Actually, I have seen a lot of Photographers adjust their Camera's settings and then the very next day they hit the trails thinking that they are going to have everything turn out, except they forgot to reset their Camera Settings back to Zero. Then after getting Home they decide to just run their JPEG's to their local CVS and end up leaving the Store with Jello instead of Photos. I don't condemn anyone if they just want to shoot in JPEG for snapshots, but I have kind of seen where it becomes a Beer-Pong game afterwards while they are scratching their heads and are in turmoil for a week due to playing with their little hand-held Computer Box and snap a few more shots before they realize what they forgot to do. And I'am not running you down in your suggestion as I know that you were trying to help the OP out. I Edit my Photos in LightRoom Classic CC or Adobe Camera Raw and on occasion, I do venture off into PhotoShop CC if I have a File that I happen to be doing for Parents and Family of their Son who is Graduating and going off to the Pro's to start a new journey. It does not take to long to do Batch Processing either. We all have Our little quirks which sometimes we turn them into a Tsunami, therefore like I said, I do not condemn anyone that has devised ways of shooting styles that works for them 95% of the time, and even the OP stated that he probably won't see another Bufflehead for awhile, but He will succeed and He will nail His Wall Hanger soon.

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Mar 19, 2022 15:53:30   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
Nickaroo wrote:
Sorry for the late response as I have been doing some Commercials for G.M. on the New EV Trucks that are coming out, worked for my Friend's Commercial Advertising Firm here in Michigan and for the Super Bowl Ad, let's just say that our Team made the cut. So doing that and Photog work at my Alma Mater, University od Michigan Football and Basketball, G.M. combined us with another very talented crew, so We Had to set every Photog and Video Team up so we would not botch it up. In fact, another Commercial with the Beautiful Blue EV Truck came out and we nailed that one also and I just happened to see it on CNBC a week ago. I'm not to amped up as I also was Hospitalized due to an incurable Lung Disease and was just released yesterday. But, I noticed where you told the OP to adjust His Contrast in His Camera Body? I have never found that sliding the Sliders In-Camera to be very cooperative, even if it is shot in JPEG and if the OP is shooting in JPEG, then maybe He should shoot in RAW+JPEG FINE, and then adjust everything in Post. I learned the hard way by trying it for the Lesson to be taught. Actually, I have seen a lot of Photographers adjust their Camera's settings and then the very next day they hit the trails thinking that they are going to have everything turn out, except they forgot to reset their Camera Settings back to Zero. Then after getting Home they decide to just run their JPEG's to their local CVS and end up leaving the Store with Jello instead of Photos. I don't condemn anyone if they just want to shoot in JPEG for snapshots, but I have kind of seen where it becomes a Beer-Pong game afterwards while they are scratching their heads and are in turmoil for a week due to playing with their little hand-held Computer Box and snap a few more shots before they realize what they forgot to do. And I'am not running you down in your suggestion as I know that you were trying to help the OP out. I Edit my Photos in LightRoom Classic CC or Adobe Camera Raw and on occasion, I do venture off into PhotoShop CC if I have a File that I happen to be doing for Parents and Family of their Son who is Graduating and going off to the Pro's to start a new journey. It does not take to long to do Batch Processing either. We all have Our little quirks which sometimes we turn them into a Tsunami, therefore like I said, I do not condemn anyone that has devised ways of shooting styles that works for them 95% of the time, and even the OP stated that he probably won't see another Bufflehead for awhile, but He will succeed and He will nail His Wall Hanger soon.
Sorry for the late response as I have been doing s... (show quote)


Learning to use the in-camera picture controls requires quite a bit of experimentation and practice. While the parameters are the same as those in post processing, they don't always generate exactly the same results. There are also some interactions among the adjustments. For instance, if you are not willing to take positive control of White Balance in the camera, there is no point in trying to make adjustments to Saturation or Tint. Changes in the Contrast setting may or may may not lead you to change your metering strategy or pattern or your Exposure Compensation, I've gotten involved in so many heated discussions with folks who have a complete misconception of how the in-camera Sharpness adjustment works that I now refuse to discuss it at all.

I am fortunate to have used cameras from the same manufacturer and same user interface design for 16 years. I've been using the Picture Control adjustments for the past 10 years or so. To be honest, I wasn't very effective doing so for the first three or four years, until I gradually developed a level of understanding of how everything works together that allowed me to get truly beneficial results. So no, I wouldn't expect anyone to immediately be able to just turn a switch and immediately be completely successful, any more than with any other new photographic technique. And a person who undertakes it with the expectation that it isn't going to work is most likely going to get exactly that result.

All of my newest cameras offer Active-D Lighting. I've now learned how and when to use that function. But...it interact directly with and can conflict with Contrast adjustments. Part of learning how to use it involved understanding that and learning not to make adjustments that either overcompensate or that cancel each other out.

If reading all of this results in someone deciding that they just want to just forget all about it and give their brain a break, I'm fine with that. But I enjoy this approach to photography and will continue, knowing that it works well when understood and applied properly, just like other approaches work well when understood and applied properly. And nothing about it causes any damage to the raw files that I also capture.

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