Be careful with Li Ion/polymer batteries!
Sep 29, 2021 10:40:41 #
Edit: just checked my spare Fuji batteries which have been “floating” around in a pouch on the side of my case. They have exposed contacts that can easily short (and a small warning printed on the hard case). I will definitely get caps or find a way to protect the contacts before they go back in the bag. I already have caps on my Canon batteries.
Sep 29, 2021 12:07:22 #
HOHIMER wrote:
So the possibilities of the root cause are:
Too much charge in the battery during removal attempt.
External heat applied via heat source. (Ambient temperature?).
Puncture of battery case (How could this cause a fire?).
Shorting of charged battery terminals. (High current draw.)
Thermal run-a-way (What initiates this?).
Any others?
Too much charge in the battery during removal attempt.
External heat applied via heat source. (Ambient temperature?).
Puncture of battery case (How could this cause a fire?).
Shorting of charged battery terminals. (High current draw.)
Thermal run-a-way (What initiates this?).
Any others?
When replacing batteries in smartphones and tablets, removal may require heating the underside of the case to soften adhesive. (Most units now use pull strips that remove the adhesive with a few pulls of elastic strips.) A hot battery pack can react more quickly and efficiently. Its soft plastic covering may be easier to puncture.
If you're using a spudger to loosen a battery pack, it may puncture the soft wrapping plastic. That often causes an internal short, which causes massive current draw, which causes thermal runaway, which ignites the chemistry...
Shorts cause Lithium (and other) batteries to run all their chemical reactions to completion in as little time as possible. The resulting energy is released as extreme heat, causing fire and/or explosion. The soft, flat battery packs inside phones, tablets, computers, and some other portable devices contain a lot of potential energy in a small space. They aren't always enclosed in protective metal cans like AA cells use. That's to keep weight down, save space, maximize room for electrolytes, and to avoid hand-grenade-like explosions. The case of the device is supposed to protect the battery.
A key reason Apple and others seal their devices is to keep the average consumer away from the battery pack, because it can be very dangerous, as Tri-X points out so well here. Yes, it compromises usability and device longevity, but it does increase safety.
Sep 29, 2021 14:00:28 #
Wow-what a story. I carry spare batteries for my Canon SX 50 loose in my case. Do I need to have those in plastic boxes so nothing touches the terminals? Or are they small enough not to cause a fire?
Sep 29, 2021 14:02:04 #
Los-Angeles-Shooter
Loc: Los Angeles
To my surprise, Amazon sometimes ships LI Ion batteries WITHOUT case or cover. My own practice is that spares ALWAYS are in a case and the case is secured closed with rubber bands and/or gaffer tape. The batteries have a specific place in storage and my camera bag.
Sep 29, 2021 14:14:44 #
jbest wrote:
Wow-what a story. I carry spare batteries for my Canon SX 50 loose in my case. Do I need to have those in plastic boxes so nothing touches the terminals? Or are they small enough not to cause a fire?
Put them in a plastic case, or cover the terminals with electrical tape with one edge folded onto itself to form a removal tab. Airlines are likely to require something different, and it changes from time to time, so check current regulations in your area/country.
Sep 29, 2021 14:21:25 #
Los-Angeles-Shooter wrote:
To my surprise, Amazon sometimes ships LI Ion batteries WITHOUT case or cover. My own practice is that spares ALWAYS are in a case and the case is secured closed with rubber bands and/or gaffer tape. The batteries have a specific place in storage and my camera bag.
I use Wasabi batteries I buy on Amazon. They come in little plastic bags, inside little white cardboard boxes, inside a small zip lock bag, inside a small, thin cardboard box from Wasabi, which ships inside an Amazon shipping box with air pillows or other padding... I keep them in little white boxes in my camera bag, away from anything that could poke them. I'm looking for a polypropylene battery box with individual compartments for my size batteries.
Sep 29, 2021 14:41:11 #
jbest wrote:
Wow-what a story. I carry spare batteries for my Canon SX 50 loose in my case. Do I need to have those in plastic boxes so nothing touches the terminals? Or are they small enough not to cause a fire?
Any size can cause a fire - just depends on how big a fire. To me, any fire in my camera bag or pocket would be unacceptable. I’ve learned my lesson, you can bet all the exposed terminals on my camera LI Ion batteries are now covered!
Sep 30, 2021 05:48:50 #
Brian in Whitby wrote:
Yes lithium is a highly flamable metal.
It is not a good idea to use water to extinguish the a metal fire.
The metal reacts with the water producing hydrogen. The hydrogen can ignite with disasterous results.
Carbon dioxide extinguishers are also counter productive be ause the flaming metal can take oxygen out of the carbon dioxide.
Usually metal fires are extinguished using DRY sand to smother the fire.
It is not a good idea to use water to extinguish the a metal fire.
The metal reacts with the water producing hydrogen. The hydrogen can ignite with disasterous results.
Carbon dioxide extinguishers are also counter productive be ause the flaming metal can take oxygen out of the carbon dioxide.
Usually metal fires are extinguished using DRY sand to smother the fire.
Also you can use a fire extinguisher designed for metal (lithium) fires.
Sep 30, 2021 08:07:43 #
Wow! We need an alternative to lithium/ion batteries. They have caused planes to crash.
Sep 30, 2021 09:05:42 #
Wow!
Over the years I've had the batteries of three devices swell and burst the cases open. Two cell phones and a laptop. Gluing these batteries in place seems like a dangerous practice, tempting the unwary to forcefully pry out the swollen battery and possible causing a rupture, and a fire/explosion. Not to mention the possibility of the swollen battery exploding on its own. That's a very high ratio of this type of failure for one person to encounter.
They gotta do better.
Over the years I've had the batteries of three devices swell and burst the cases open. Two cell phones and a laptop. Gluing these batteries in place seems like a dangerous practice, tempting the unwary to forcefully pry out the swollen battery and possible causing a rupture, and a fire/explosion. Not to mention the possibility of the swollen battery exploding on its own. That's a very high ratio of this type of failure for one person to encounter.
They gotta do better.
Sep 30, 2021 09:25:32 #
Bayou wrote:
Wow!
Over the years I've had the batteries of three devices swell and burst the cases open. Two cell phones and a laptop. Gluing these batteries in place seems like a dangerous practice, tempting the unwary to forcefully pry out the swollen battery and possible causing a rupture, and a fire/explosion. Not to mention the possibility of the swollen battery exploding on its own. That's a very high ratio of this type of failure for one person to encounter.
They gotta do better.
Over the years I've had the batteries of three devices swell and burst the cases open. Two cell phones and a laptop. Gluing these batteries in place seems like a dangerous practice, tempting the unwary to forcefully pry out the swollen battery and possible causing a rupture, and a fire/explosion. Not to mention the possibility of the swollen battery exploding on its own. That's a very high ratio of this type of failure for one person to encounter.
They gotta do better.
Yes, a new technology is needed. I have had one device swell and burst the case open prior to this, and this was with the factory supplied charger, so now I’m gun shy. What if the charger fails and causes a battery to catch fire in my house. It’s impractical to charge everything, such as camera batteries outside, so now all my LI Ion chargers are in Pyrex dishes with nothing flammable near them. Easy enough not to puncture the case again, but what about the charger failing as was mentioned earlier in the thread by an RC hobbyist. Finally, what about the large batteries used for storing energy from solar arrays or the electric car you park and charge in your garage? If the charging system fails, you may lose your house, because from my experience, you’ll never put the fire out in time with a large battery. There have been some monumental fires from larger versions that have taken many days to extinguish (https://www.ft.com/content/8c9c3d50-98a3-4cdf-907f-901f8c328b90). Honestly, I was planning on installing a 60 amp 230V outlet in my garage for a future electric plug-in hybrid, but now I’m not so sure. There are new battery technologies being developed that may be safer, and I hope they’re successful and deployed soon. BTW, I’d be interested to know the exact chemical reaction when they catch fire. Any chemists among us that can post the equation?
Sep 30, 2021 09:33:29 #
TriX wrote:
...What if the charger fails and causes a battery to catch fire in my house...
Indeed...it's not so much the shorting of terminals or puncturing that worries me, but the swelling. You do everything right, factory chargers that are supposed to be safe to leave plugged in for long periods, and the battery swells anyway. Swelling can lead to rupture, which can lead to explosion. Even if there is no fire/explosion, the swelling destroys the device. Yikes.
Sep 30, 2021 11:00:22 #
TriX wrote:
...so now all my LI Ion chargers are in Pyrex dishes with nothing flammable near them.
I see a new product line: safety containers for charging batteries.
Sep 30, 2021 11:09:02 #
jerryc41 wrote:
I see a new product line: safety containers for charging batteries.
An excellent idea! I’ll talk it over with my Thermal Managements company that I consult for.
Sep 30, 2021 14:25:27 #
TriX wrote:
An excellent idea! I’ll talk it over with my Thermal Managements company that I consult for.
It looks like someone beat you to it.
https://www.google.com/search?q=safe+container+for+charging+lithium+batteries&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS925US925&oq=safe+container+for+charging+lithium+batteries&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i22i29i30.10799j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.