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Two interesting observations about "equivalent focal length"
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Jan 18, 2021 13:59:52   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
a6k wrote:
They don't if you mean that dots are round. I suggest looking up Bayer Matrix. There are 4 anyhow, not 3 but there are only 3 colors.

Oh, okay, square dots.
But ink (printer) dots are round, right?

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Jan 18, 2021 14:12:53   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
a6k wrote:
It doesn't relate to printing. That is what I am trying to say. Those questions are nonsensical deliberately. You are trying to pick a quarrel for no good reason. You are asking questions that at best obscure my very reasonable and factual point which is that the crop factor alone does not accurately show us what the outcome will be of a given lens on a given size sensor. To be accurate we also need pixel density or whatever you want to call it. This does not have to be difficult.

A monitor can be used as a virtual print in this kind of discussion, notwithstanding that it is not a print. It still has tiny little areas which are physically constant and can be said to have a number per distance. Duh.

Your 1920 pixel screen (horizontally) can only display a little less than 1/3 of my 6000 pixel image at one time unless it compresses it. If you use something like Mac's Preview and show the full size then you will only see part of the image. The use of a print as a metric is simply to put the whole thing in practical terms. If you don't like the terminology that changes nothing. A sensor of the same size but with more density will allow a larger print at the same DPI if that is a term that you will agree applies to a print. A 6000 pixel (H) image can be printed up to 20" at 300 DPI. Beyond that it needs to be upsized. In my example, downstream a bit, I showed how this works with a 𝜶6500 vs a 𝜶7R4. The crop factor does not produce a larger image there but it does compared to the 𝜶9.
b It doesn't relate to printing /b . That is what... (show quote)


Every question was asked specifically to illuminate the fact that DPI has nothing to do with pixel-based images, not when viewed, nor when printed, not when created by cropped cameras, not when created by full-frame, nor other formats.

When I display the attached 1920-wide image on my 1920-pixel screen, I'm see exactly 1 pixel in the image as 1 pixel on the screen. Consider these questions:

Q1 The image was captured on film, does that explain why it as a DPI = 1 if you download and check the file properties?

Q2 If this monitor is 81 ppi and and the image is 1920x1080 pixels, will it look the same printed as it looks on my (or yours, anyone's) screen?

Q3 Can the image be printed to 300 DPI if the file reports DPI = 1?

Q4 It seems like 300 ppi would give about a 6x4-inch print? But, this "full HD" monitor is roughly 20x14-inch. If printed at 81ppi to 20x14in, will the print be WYSIWYG - What You See Is What You Get?


(Download)

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Jan 18, 2021 14:31:05   #
BebuLamar
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
The attached image reports 1 DPI as shown earlier in the responses of this thread, why does the image not display as all black or some mixture of Red+Green+Blue?

Or, do I need to print the image to see this 1 DPI in action?


I wouldn't know how your image reports dpi. But each pixel on the monitor is formed by 2 dots a R, A G and a B dot of different intensity.
On an inkjet printer a pixel is made up of many dots and each dot can only have the color of one of the inks you have. If you have 4 ink printer each of the dot is only either Y, C, M or black and the dots can't vary the intensity so it takes good number of dots to simulate the color of a pixel.

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Jan 18, 2021 14:32:39   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
BebuLamar wrote:
1920x1080 so your monitor has 2,073,600 pixels and for an LCD to produce 1 pixel it needs 3 dots so you have 6,220,800 dots.


There are no “dots” on a modern LCD display, there are pixels. In the old CRT days, when there was a physical mask between the electron guns and the phosphors on the screen, the size of the holes in the mask were referred to as “dot pitch”, with a smaller number such as .24 indicating a higher resolution display than a large number such as .38. But even then, it was a misnomer as the mask in Sony Trinitons had square, not round holes. Now there are no masks, no electron guns and no “dots” - there are pixels in an x-y display, and we refer to the resolution of the display as x pixels x y pixels. Some manufacturers do quote PPI, but never DPI as this is a printing, not a display term (as Paul has been saying for 4 pages).

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Jan 18, 2021 14:34:49   #
bleirer
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Is this asked in jest or seriousness?

The equivalent focal length is a result of cropping a portion of the image from the corresponding full-frame (35mm) frame. Adding or substracting pixels from the image via resampling doesn't visually change the perspective of the image as created by the camera for the lens and focal length used.


Just trying to point out a possible fault in the OP theory.

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Jan 18, 2021 14:35:33   #
BebuLamar
 
Longshadow wrote:
How do three dots make a rectangular pixel?


The dots are actually rectangular but the 3 dots make up a square pixel on the screen.

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Jan 18, 2021 14:37:35   #
BebuLamar
 
TriX wrote:
There are no “dots” on a modern LCD display, there are pixels. In the old CRT days, when there was a physical mask between the electron guns and the phosphors on the screen, the size of the holes in the mask were referred to as “dot pitch”, with a smaller number such as .24 indicating a higher resolution display than a large number such as .38. But even then, it was a misnomer as the mask in Sony Trinitons had square, not round holes. Now there are no masks, no electron guns and no “dots” - there are pixels in an x-y display, and we refer to the resolution of the display as x pixels x y pixels. Some manufacturers do quote PPI, but never DPI as this is a printing, not a display term (as Paul has been saying for 4 pages).
There are no “dots” on a modern LCD display, there... (show quote)


There are 3 rectangular LCD elements for each of the pixel on an LCD screen. One LCD element can only have one color red, green or blue.

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Jan 18, 2021 14:47:30   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
BebuLamar wrote:
There are 3 rectangular LCD elements for each of the pixel on an LCD screen. One LCD element can only have one color red, green or blue.


No argument with that.

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Jan 18, 2021 15:51:07   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
TriX wrote:
There are no “dots” on a modern LCD display, there are pixels. In the old CRT days, when there was a physical mask between the electron guns and the phosphors on the screen, the size of the holes in the mask were referred to as “dot pitch”, with a smaller number such as .24 indicating a higher resolution display than a large number such as .38. But even then, it was a misnomer as the mask in Sony Trinitons had square, not round holes. Now there are no masks, no electron guns and no “dots” - there are pixels in an x-y display, and we refer to the resolution of the display as x pixels x y pixels. Some manufacturers do quote PPI, but never DPI as this is a printing, not a display term (as Paul has been saying for 4 pages).
There are no “dots” on a modern LCD display, there... (show quote)


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Jan 18, 2021 15:52:33   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
BebuLamar wrote:
The dots are actually rectangular but the 3 dots make up a square pixel on the screen.

Left-right? up-down?
Which are the R, G, & B?

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Jan 18, 2021 16:01:14   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
Is it one angel of each color in a pixel, or can I go 4 red angels for every green replacement?

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Jan 18, 2021 16:18:18   #
BebuLamar
 
Longshadow wrote:
Left-right? up-down?
Which are the R, G, & B?


left right. 3 rectangle LCD element of 1 wide by 3 high in order of left to right R, G and B. That's most of the LCD monitor. Of course some manufacturers may want to arrange them differently.

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Jan 18, 2021 16:19:49   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
Is it one angel of each color in a pixel, or can I go 4 red angels for every green replacement?


It’s preordained - one red angel, one blue angel and two green angels... (for each pinhead - oops, I meant pixel) 😇

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Jan 18, 2021 17:20:37   #
a6k Loc: Detroit & Sanibel
 
🙉

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Jan 18, 2021 18:36:49   #
blackest Loc: Ireland
 
What can you resolve? for an 8 by 10 print 300dpi is fine at a normal viewing distance some where it was figured 10 line pairs per mm is pretty much as detailed as you need to be to not be able to resolve the lines with 25.4mm to the inch that corresponds with 254 lines per inch so 300 dpi is overkill really If you want a bigger print you can use a lower dpi as you view it from further back.

Cropping you can get a pretty good idea of crop factor dividing your image into 3rds and 1/4s if we start with 1/4s each 1/4 represents a 2x crop factor if the lens was a 50mm then 1/4 of the frame is a 2x crop or 100mm field of view if you divide into 1/3rds horizontally and vertically and use 4 of those thirds you have a 1.5 crop and that part of the image from a 50mm lens has a 75mm field of view if you take a single third thats a 3x crop and you are now looking at a 150mm field of view from that 50mm lens. depending on the sensor that 1/3rd section is probably too much to crop to.
An 8x 12" at 300 dpi is roughly 8.6Mpix and for my 36mpix camera the most i would want to crop is 2x if i wanted a reasonable IQ if I don't crop at all i'm looking at about 600dpi and at a normal viewing distance for an 8 by 12 i wouldn't resolve the image any better than the 300 dpi image.

To be fair this is of more use in the field, if the bit you are interested in is only a 1/9th of the frame you really want to swop to a lens 3x longer a 1/4 2x longer or 4/9ths 1.5x longer these longer lenses will be designed to perform at these distances. I hope this is useful. To be fair if you are going to crop into your image you need to raise your shutter speed by a stop or more too.

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