Interesting Take on Electric Cars
Dec 5, 2020 17:03:02 #
berchman
Loc: South Central PA
TriX wrote:
No need for new technology - as you suggest, just plant trees (and stop the continuing deforestation of the rain forests).
The ocean is even more effective at absorbing Co2 than trees. In Brazil the Amazon is being de-forested at an alarming rate. https://www.wri.org/blog/2020/10/ocean-carbon-dioxide-sequestration
Dec 5, 2020 17:08:24 #
berchman wrote:
The ocean is even more effective at absorbing Co2 than trees. In Brazil the Amazon is being de-forested at an alarming rate. https://www.wri.org/blog/2020/10/ocean-carbon-dioxide-sequestration
I agree, and we seem powerless to stop this ecological calamity.
Dec 5, 2020 23:11:16 #
Plants do it using sunlight as the energy source, i.e. the original solar power.
C + O2 = CO2 + energy, and energy + CO2 can = C + O2. Or for plants CO2 + sunlight = sugar + O2.
The problem is that C fuels are energy dense, biofuels are, take huge areas of land. The EU used large amounts of bio diesel which has resulted in losses of wildlife and forests in Asia.
No easy answer. Clean coal is suppose to capture and pump the CO2 underground, but it could escape killing everything in the area except bacteria, (happened in a volcanic lake, killing plants, animals, etc.), or lubricate the rock and causing earthquakes. Such quakes have happened due to waste pumping and tracking (Kansas).
C + O2 = CO2 + energy, and energy + CO2 can = C + O2. Or for plants CO2 + sunlight = sugar + O2.
The problem is that C fuels are energy dense, biofuels are, take huge areas of land. The EU used large amounts of bio diesel which has resulted in losses of wildlife and forests in Asia.
No easy answer. Clean coal is suppose to capture and pump the CO2 underground, but it could escape killing everything in the area except bacteria, (happened in a volcanic lake, killing plants, animals, etc.), or lubricate the rock and causing earthquakes. Such quakes have happened due to waste pumping and tracking (Kansas).
Dec 6, 2020 21:34:36 #
You might want to double check your math. Average electric rate in California is about $.15 per kw. Doubt yours are $1.16.
chase4 wrote:
Interested in what the engineers or others with kn... (show quote)
Dec 6, 2020 22:02:29 #
Hamltnblue
Loc: Springfield PA
The whole electric car movement is a house of cards. Outside the cost per kw, the rest was accurate. There are other energy losses in transmission not listed.
A couple of other items.
The life of the battery is generally similar to a cell phone. When new you go a long way after a charge. After a year or sooner you start to notice a charge doesn’t last as long. A couple of years later you’re charging twice as much or more. They just don’t last. Anyone know what it costs to replace an EV battery? Bet it’s very high on the level of replacing an engine.
What happens if you get one of the highway traffic jams we often see in the winterwhen roads ice? What happens when all cars are EV in that situation? The heaters are still running and draining batteries. After a few hours enough cars would be drained, causing a total jam requiring thousands to be rescued.
A couple of other items.
The life of the battery is generally similar to a cell phone. When new you go a long way after a charge. After a year or sooner you start to notice a charge doesn’t last as long. A couple of years later you’re charging twice as much or more. They just don’t last. Anyone know what it costs to replace an EV battery? Bet it’s very high on the level of replacing an engine.
What happens if you get one of the highway traffic jams we often see in the winterwhen roads ice? What happens when all cars are EV in that situation? The heaters are still running and draining batteries. After a few hours enough cars would be drained, causing a total jam requiring thousands to be rescued.
Dec 6, 2020 22:11:11 #
Hamltnblue
Loc: Springfield PA
berchman wrote:
The ocean is even more effective at absorbing Co2 than trees. In Brazil the Amazon is being de-forested at an alarming rate. https://www.wri.org/blog/2020/10/ocean-carbon-dioxide-sequestration
I think there’s more political science going on and not real science.
Water is H2O, not H2CO.
In my time living in the ocean we never ran into co2 pockets nor did we have any indication of any.
Fish are still living to the deepest depths.
There are no hidden layers or pools of co2
Dec 6, 2020 23:15:45 #
Hamltnblue wrote:
I think there’s more political science going on and not real science.
Water is H2O, not H2CO.
In my time living in the ocean we never ran into co2 pockets nor did we have any indication of any.
Fish are still living to the deepest depths.
There are no hidden layers or pools of co2
Water is H2O, not H2CO.
In my time living in the ocean we never ran into co2 pockets nor did we have any indication of any.
Fish are still living to the deepest depths.
There are no hidden layers or pools of co2
I think maybe this article from NOAA might shed some light on the subject. https://www.noaa.gov/education/resource-collections/ocean-coasts/ocean-acidification
Rather than there being pockets of CO2, CO2 dissolves in seawater readily and is dispersed. Fish take in O2 and expel CO2 into their environment just as terrestrial animals do. In fact, aquarists inject CO2 into aquariums to promote plant growth. I believe the equation is H2O + CO2 > H2CO3 (carbonic acid) http://ion.chem.usu.edu/~sbialkow/Classes/3650/Carbonate/Carbonic%20Acid.html
Dec 6, 2020 23:41:04 #
Hamltnblue wrote:
The whole electric car movement is a house of card... (show quote)
I believe that all EV automobiles sold in the US are mandated to have a 8 year 100,000 mile warranty on the battery. Not sure about other manufacturers, But Nissan batteries sell for between $7,900 and $10,000 depending on the capacity. I would expect that cost to come down as more are produced, but it’s not insignificant. From what I can determine, the Li Ion batteries in cars degrade less over time than a cellphone/laptop/tablet because they are not allowed to discharge as far, but I haven’t found good data on the degradation of the capacity for vehicle batteries over time - perhaps as more are in service for longer periods, we’ll get some real world data. Certainly it’s a consideration.
Dec 7, 2020 04:56:18 #
paulrph1
Loc: Washington, Utah
chase4 wrote:
Interested in what the engineers or others with kn... (show quote)
So on a recent trip, while staying a motel, they had a few spots reserved for vehicles to recharge their autos while they slept. I could see no evidence of any place to pay for the charging of said vehicles. So who is footing the bill?
Dec 7, 2020 07:06:31 #
Dec 7, 2020 08:37:05 #
berchman
Loc: South Central PA
Hamltnblue wrote:
The whole electric car movement is a house of card... (show quote)
The real life experience of people owning and driving Teslas for a number of years show very little degradation of the batteries, nothing even close to the imaginary "charging twice as much or more." Moreover, people camping overnight in their Teslas and running the heater show at most a 1-2% loss of charge.
Dec 7, 2020 10:51:34 #
Bbarn
Loc: Ohio
I would think average power consumption of a heater would be at least 500W. More if very cold, less if just cool. That would translate to more than 4kWhr for a period of 8 hours. That's 4% of a 100kWhr battery. The full capacity of the heater is likely at least 4X that for initially fast heating from a cold state.
Dec 7, 2020 11:26:26 #
The equation for forming carbonic acid is correct and actually part of the problem. Add too much CO2 to the oceans and they become more acidic. This results in the carbonate in animal shells to resolve to form bicarbonate, and/or makes it harder to form such shells.
CaC03 + H2CO3 yields Ca(HCO3)2 (bicarbonate which is water soluble)
CaC03 + H2CO3 yields Ca(HCO3)2 (bicarbonate which is water soluble)
Dec 7, 2020 11:36:12 #
TriX wrote:
I think maybe this article from NOAA might shed so... (show quote)
Just curious, after reading the article, I wonder what the catalyst is to cause two electrically stable molecules (CO2, H2O) to merge into H2CO3? Or, is there enough of a charge in H2O to accommodate this reaction?
PS - Incoming air quality on the Pacific Coast has been measured since the 1880's. The quality of air incoming from the ocean is the same now as then. As the air crosses the U.S., the mountains "wash" the air, but never to the extent that the Pacific cleans it. After it exits the U.S., the Atlantic does the same job. This is only a rough gauge, since domestic air currents are influenced by both Arctic and tropical wind activity.
Dec 7, 2020 12:12:35 #
No catalyst needed, just how molecules react. The energy needed is low so it happens easily. Some flamable reactions are just as easy at room temperature just not coal + oxygen, unless the oxygen content is much higher or the coal is dust.
For example, methane CH4 needs a spark or such to spontaneously burn at room temps, but silicon hydride (SiH4) will ignite spontaneous in air.
Many chemical reactions for similar materials are very different and analogies can get one killed. Each element, even those with very similar chemistries, has its own properties due to the energy forces at the molecular level involved.
Now a days, the curiosity common in chemists my age shown growing up would get one visits from agencies one does not really want to know: FBI, ATF, etc. Taking about Lithium ion batteries would be a top list priority to get the Lithium.
There are enzymes (catalysts) in biological systems for the CO2 reactions, but as I remember, as rates are higher, but as much higher as caused by many enzymes.
For example, methane CH4 needs a spark or such to spontaneously burn at room temps, but silicon hydride (SiH4) will ignite spontaneous in air.
Many chemical reactions for similar materials are very different and analogies can get one killed. Each element, even those with very similar chemistries, has its own properties due to the energy forces at the molecular level involved.
Now a days, the curiosity common in chemists my age shown growing up would get one visits from agencies one does not really want to know: FBI, ATF, etc. Taking about Lithium ion batteries would be a top list priority to get the Lithium.
There are enzymes (catalysts) in biological systems for the CO2 reactions, but as I remember, as rates are higher, but as much higher as caused by many enzymes.
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