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Looking for mirrorless camera for experienced photographer.
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Nov 22, 2020 20:32:08   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
DMF wrote:
Is the lens weight significantly different for mirrorless cameras?


Between camera bodies in the various formats, the differences are not in magnitudes. FFs tend to be heavier and 4/3rds tends to be lighter, whether mirrorless or not. Mirrorless tends to be lighter than mirrored. The upper end Pro Olympus E-M1X will probably be heavier than an entry level Canon or Nikon. But then one is comparing a pro level body to an entry level body.

The most weight savings will be seen in the lenses. I have previous to this particular thread entry compared 300mm Olympus to the Canon and Nikon 600mm (same angle of view). But compare the Olympus E-M1X, 2X teleconverter, and the new 150-400 f4.5 Pro IS 1.25X lens to the same Canon and Nikon 600. The 150-400 is 12.3" X 4.5" dia., 4.13 lbs., and $7499 (smaller, lighter, and cheaper than either 600). The range in 35mm terms, using the 2X to extend the range, is 300mm to 2000mm. The total weight of the E-M1X, 2X teleconverter, and the 150-400 f4.5 Pro IS 1.25X lens is 6.66 lbs. which is basically the same weight of the Canon or Nikon 600mm lens by itself while the Olympus pro body, teleconverter, and pro lens combination is still cheaper than either lens. Yes, that combination is still not cheap at $10.9K, but that is the most expense combination for any 4/3rds combination. Everything else is cheaper than that combination. And try to find a similar combination that will reach 300mm to 2000mm in FF or APS-C for $10.9K and offer 6 to 8 stops of IS. They don't exist and possibly never will. That is the true draw of 4/3rds.

Starting the 27th, Olympus will be offering sales on some of their better body / lens combinations that will start at $500. I am sure that Panasonic, Sony, Canon, Nikon, and others are going to have very good combination sales that will be worth looking into also.

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Nov 22, 2020 20:32:43   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
DMF wrote:
The table appears to list manufacturers not models. Not sure how you interpret that 4/3 is barely holding on? Perhaps because neither Cannon or Nikon offer 4/3. Need help?


Because the first 4, which comprise almost 90 percent of the entire camera market, do not offer 4/3, and overall, the camera market is shrinking as people more and more use cellphones. Olympus, which (rightly) has a loyal following, has just sold off their camera division to a holding company, and its future is uncertain - possibly a portent of things to come, and at least something to consider when investing in a new system.

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Nov 22, 2020 20:45:38   #
DMF
 
TriX wrote:
Doug, If you use the “quote reply” button under the post you’re replying to, it will help us understand who your response is directed to.

Cheers,
Chris


Thanks, had not noticed this. Certainly will help. Doug

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Nov 22, 2020 20:48:13   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
TriX wrote:
Because the first 4, which comprise almost 90 percent of the entire camera market, do not offer 4/3, and overall, the camera market is shrinking as people more and more use cellphones. Olympus, which (rightly) has a loyal following, has just sold off their camera division to a holding company, and its future is uncertain - possibly a portent of things to come, and at least something to consider when investing in a new system.


Sony also "sold" their camera division. Sony Corperation only owns 20% of the company. Sony cameras is now a stand alone company. I think even Sony Corporation is not sure what the smartphone market is going to do to the more traditional camera market. JIP, 90% owner of OMDS, and Olympus, 10% owner of OMDS, have only themselves to blame if they fail, just like Sony. They both are now stand alone companies.

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Nov 22, 2020 21:00:38   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
TriX wrote:
Because the first 4, which comprise almost 90 percent of the entire camera market, do not offer 4/3, and overall, the camera market is shrinking as people more and more use cellphones. Olympus, which (rightly) has a loyal following, has just sold off their camera division to a holding company, and its future is uncertain - possibly a portent of things to come, and at least something to consider when investing in a new system.


Also, for the first quarter of the year, Olympus had a little more than 20% of the market (2nd place). Sony led them all at about 25%. Olympus, Canon, and Nikon move around in the next three or four spots on a regular basis. But until OMDS gets rid of the repair department (and there are no plans to do so), I will feel safe enough buying Olympus.

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Nov 22, 2020 21:10:53   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
wdross wrote:
Between camera bodies in the various formats, the differences are not in magnitudes. FFs tend to be heavier and 4/3rds tends to be lighter, whether mirrorless or not. Mirrorless tends to be lighter than mirrored. The upper end Pro Olympus E-M1X will probably be heavier than an entry level Canon or Nikon. But then one is comparing a pro level body to an entry level body.

The most weight savings will be seen in the lenses. I have previous to this particular thread entry compared 300mm Olympus to the Canon and Nikon 600mm (same angle of view). But compare the Olympus E-M1X, 2X teleconverter, and the new 150-400 f4.5 Pro IS 1.25X lens to the same Canon and Nikon 600. The 150-400 is 12.3" X 4.5" dia., 4.13 lbs., and $7499 (smaller, lighter, and cheaper than either 600). The range in 35mm terms, using the 2X to extend the range, is 300mm to 2000mm. The total weight of the E-M1X, 2X teleconverter, and the 150-400 f4.5 Pro IS 1.25X lens is 6.66 lbs. which is basically the same weight of the Canon or Nikon 600mm lens by itself while the Olympus pro body, teleconverter, and pro lens combination is still cheaper than either lens. Yes, that combination is still not cheap at $10.9K, but that is the most expense combination for any 4/3rds combination. Everything else is cheaper than that combination. And try to find a similar combination that will reach 300mm to 2000mm in FF or APS-C for $10.9K and offer 6 to 8 stops of IS. They don't exist and possibly never will. That is the true draw of 4/3rds.

Starting the 27th, Olympus will be offering sales on some of their better body / lens combinations that will start at $500. I am sure that Panasonic, Sony, Canon, Nikon, and others are going to have very good combination sales that will be worth looking into also.
Between camera bodies in the various formats, the ... (show quote)


Points well taken, especially if you need a very long “reach”, but Fuji has some interesting alternatives, although not as “long” (but how often do you need or can actually use anything longer than 840mm?), and nothing in 4/3 can approach the low light capability of the 2nd option.

XT-4 with 100-400 f4.5-f5.6. $3500, 4.2 lbs, 600mm equiv. and 6.5 stops of IBIS PLUS 5 stops of in lens stabil.
Add the 1.4x TC, and you’re at 840mm eqiv., <4.5 lbs, $3850 and f8 plus all the IBIS + OIS

XT-4 with the remarkable 200mm f2 +included 1.4x yielding 420mm equiv, @ f2.8 (!) <6.5 lbs tot. And all the IBIS + OIS, $7,700.

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Nov 22, 2020 21:11:45   #
wdross Loc: Castle Rock, Colorado
 
John Hicks wrote:
I do not believe either Fuji or Olympus lenses are as good as Canon or Nikon as the two companies make the best lenses in my opinion, I used to use a Canon DSLR and a full set of Canon lenses many of them the white pro lenses
I changed my DSLR for weight reasons and bought a Canon m 50 with a am to e.g. Canon adaptor so I still use my e.g. Lenses now a days with a monopod.

I do not not know Nikons line up that well but would a similar body to the one I changed to suit and you could use your Nikon lenses perhaps with an adaptor and also use a mobile to help with the weight no doubt Nikon do a similar camera to my m50
I do not believe either Fuji or Olympus lenses are... (show quote)


Fuji is a the manufacture for some of the Hasselblad lenses. Also, read some of the Image Resource's reviews if you think Olympus and Panasonic lenses are not as good as Canon and Nikon lenses. They could not believe how sharp the 300mm f4 Pro IS lens was. And the new 150-400 f4.5 Pro IS lens is suppose to be even a little sharper.

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Nov 22, 2020 21:26:02   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
TriX wrote:
Because the first 4, which comprise almost 90 percent of the entire camera market, do not offer 4/3, and overall, the camera market is shrinking as people more and more use cellphones. Olympus, which (rightly) has a loyal following, has just sold off their camera division to a holding company, and its future is uncertain - possibly a portent of things to come, and at least something to consider when investing in a new system.


Meanwhile, Panasonic is following the market. They now have four full frame mirrorless bodies and a new Micro 4/3 hybrid model waiting in the wings. They introduced a new Micro 4/3 vlogging camera earlier this year, and work continues on lenses for both platforms. It’s rumored that a new focusing technology is in development, too.

I’m not worried either they or Olympus are going away any time soon.

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Nov 22, 2020 21:31:02   #
wetreed
 
Ched49 wrote:
Since your wife is familiar with Nikon's feature set, it might be a good idea to look at Nikon's mirrorless Z cameras. Why change brands if you don't have too.


This is an excellent point. You should stay with Nikon.

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Nov 22, 2020 21:39:31   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
wdross wrote:
Also, for the first quarter of the year, Olympus had a little more than 20% of the market (2nd place). Sony led them all at about 25%. Olympus, Canon, and Nikon move around in the next three or four spots on a regular basis. But until OMDS gets rid of the repair department (and there are no plans to do so), I will feel safe enough buying Olympus.


I think you must be referring to the MILC market, while the earlier %s were referring to the total camera market? I suspect as Canon’s and Nikon’s mirrorless products mature, those places are going to look very different next year

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Nov 22, 2020 21:43:34   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
burkphoto wrote:
Meanwhile, Panasonic is following the market. They now have four full frame mirrorless bodies and a new Micro 4/3 hybrid model waiting in the wings. They introduced a new Micro 4/3 vlogging camera earlier this year, and work continues on lenses for both platforms. It’s rumored that a new focusing technology is in development, too.

I’m not worried either they or Olympus are going away any time soon.


I think Panasonic is in a much stronger place than Olympus - their extensive video presence and lenses should help them compete in the marketplace.

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Nov 22, 2020 21:52:33   #
TriX Loc: Raleigh, NC
 
wdross wrote:
Sony also "sold" their camera division. Sony Corperation only owns 20% of the company. Sony cameras is now a stand alone company. I think even Sony Corporation is not sure what the smartphone market is going to do to the more traditional camera market. JIP, 90% owner of OMDS, and Olympus, 10% owner of OMDS, have only themselves to blame if they fail, just like Sony. They both are now stand alone companies.


I truly hope Olympus survives - they make fine high performance cameras and have a deservedly loyal following. Unfortunately, from what I read of JIP, they often divest holdings for profit, division by division. I watched this happen to Tektronix, who once built the finest instrumentation in the world, only to be torn apart by a corporate raider, intent on splitting up their assets at a profit. Only time will tell. I didn’t realize that about Sony...

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Nov 22, 2020 22:37:20   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
TriX wrote:
I think Panasonic is in a much stronger place than Olympus - their extensive video presence and lenses should help them compete in the marketplace.


That, and they are owned by Matsushita, a huge conglomerate.

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Nov 22, 2020 23:32:33   #
DMF
 
TriX wrote:
Because the first 4, which comprise almost 90 percent of the entire camera market, do not offer 4/3, and overall, the camera market is shrinking as people more and more use cellphones. Olympus, which (rightly) has a loyal following, has just sold off their camera division to a holding company, and its future is uncertain - possibly a portent of things to come, and at least something to consider when investing in a new system.


Appears waiting would be best. Thanks for taking the time to help me understand. Doug

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Nov 22, 2020 23:40:09   #
DMF
 
burkphoto wrote:
SYSTEM weight (defined as the weight of the camera bag you carry around) will not change significantly if you keep using full frame lenses. For most of us, lenses are where the weight is. Oh, you can settle for smaller maximum apertures and save a bit of weight, but if you like to work in low light, that's annoying.

I have used many cameras, both personally and professionally. Today's cameras are incredible — period. I would rent to try before you buy. Basically, menus, ergonomics, weight, and feature sets matter a hell of a lot more than brand. All of the majors are making great bodies and lenses now. And since most of the mirrorless lens designs are less than ten years old, they benefit from the current state of the art.

That said, life is full of little trade-offs. EVERY camera is some sort of compromise. You give up some attributes to get those which are mutually exclusive. We can't buck the laws of physics.

My personal system is Micro 4/3. I use a Lumix GH4 for both video and stills. I have three pro-grade stabilized lenses — 12-35mm f/2.8, 30mm f/2.8 Macro, and 35-100mm f/2.8 (equivalent to full frame 24-70, 60, and 70-200 mm range), plus a couple of f/1.7 primes (15mm and 42.5mm). My entire system will fit under an airline seat. My bag is half the weight of what it was in my APS-C dSLR days, and 1/3 the weight of my kit in the film days of my youth.

I can, and have, written 7-page explanations of why I use what I use. It DOES NOT work for everyone, but it is exactly what I need. The best advice I can give you is go to http://www.dpreview.com and read reviews of the latest gear in your budget range. Then rent, and give the rental gear a good workout.

I would carefully define what it is you want to photograph. Define a kit weight you can tolerate. Define what is most important to you about a system. Define a budget. Then look for gear that meets your needs as best as you can find. Every body and lens has its niche application.

If it's Micro 4/3 you want, the Lumix G9 and GH5 are top-tier machines. Both are particularly good at BOTH stills and video. The G9 is the better stills camera, and the GH5 is the better video camera.

The Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II and the OM-D E-M1X are also top-tier. Others here have sung their praises.

If you like APS-C, the Fujifilm XT-4 is my target pick because their lenses are specifically designed for THAT FORMAT. Its film simulations in JPEG mode are great.

I'm not going to get into Sony, Canon, and Nikon offerings. Others will tell you their stories. Suffice it to say their mirrorless offerings were not there when I was in need of a new system. If a full frame mirrorless system were available in 2014, I would have bought it, so long as the audio features of the video section had pro features.
SYSTEM weight (defined as the weight of the camera... (show quote)


Lot of info to digest coming in, may need to run and hide. Sincerely appreciate everyone taking the time to help. Thanks again. Doug

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