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What Does ISO Do in the Digital World
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Nov 10, 2020 16:05:27   #
smilenangler Loc: The Flood City, Pa.
 
Thanks to you all...another free lesson...

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Nov 10, 2020 16:11:18   #
Wallen Loc: Middle Earth
 
"ISO in digital world is a big lie perpetuated by the manufacturers to sweeten their sales."

It seems my short answer is being misconstrued as a rant or just a BS remark.
So I guess, a long answer is needed.

First of all, the comment is my own stand and I am not pushing my agenda on anyone. Just clarifying my view and from where I am looking at it.

I meant no BS for anyone and literally meant what is written there. IN THE DIGITAL WORLD - that comment about ISO is only about Digital cameras & how the manufacturers distort it for their gain (pun intended).

Ysarex made a very nice post about it and I am not contesting that. I did however follow up an answer that (for me) it does not matter what those ISO standards are in relation to cameras because it allows the manufacturer to make their own standards. Hence the reality is that there is variance or to make it more blunt, the ISO from one camera model and one manufacturer to another are not the same.
That leaves a sour taste as it literally shouts "My picture is good because I made it".

So in the real world, we can have Camera A & B both shoot ISO 1000 but camera B has less noise.
Because in the engineering standpoint, Camera A is actually ISO 2000 labelled as ISO 1000
even though they both mark their Exif data ISO 1000. That is the standard we are looking at.

The above reasons are why I do not bother with ISO standards as it is not standard amongst the tools it was supposed to be on. I take it at face value and use it like what it used to be in the film days but knowing fully well it is a different technology.

Hence I say, just use it as a tool like a volume control but something that affects brightness instead of loudness. This is meant to relate one idea which is common to many, to an unknown. It was not a literal conversion, just the gist of the matter.

If anyone wants to be really technical and know the full details read up on an this previous post:
https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-671081-1.html

https://www.visiononline.org/userassets/aiauploads/file/cvp_the-fundamentals-of-camera-and-image-sensor-technology_jon-chouinard.pdf
Take note of pages 52-59

To really appreciate and compare one camera with another, view this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqG7Raj-iWo
Take full note of time stamp 2:51 to 4:10

The above are engineering & manufacturing information and are the real essence of the equipment.

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Nov 10, 2020 16:53:58   #
PhotogHobbyist Loc: Bradford, PA
 
three.toed wrote:
Hello - New to this forum. I used to take a few pictures with slides and I maybe understood what ISO meant (the amount of chemical on the film that provided more or less light to be captured and hence more or less detail). I cannot figure out what ISO does in Digital Cameras. This image of two Norther Mockingbirds Squabbling was taken at F4 - 1/2000 - ISO 100. Where is the sweet spot for ISO or is that all a matter of personal choice? I understand a little about speed and ISO but what does ISO really do? Thanks for any information or comments you can provide.
Hello - New to this forum. I used to take a few pi... (show quote)


I am not an expert in photography but after reading through a lot of this thread, I think the easiest way is to NOT get into the detailed and explicit explanation or description, just say it is a way of making the sensor more or less sensitive to light in a similar way that the granules of photosensitivity chemicals reacted to light for film.

I'm a firm believer in the KISS method of explanation.

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Nov 10, 2020 17:10:29   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
Wallen wrote:
I did however follow up an answer that (for me) it does not matter what those ISO standards are in relation to cameras because it allows the manufacturer to make their own standards. Hence the reality is that there is variance or to make it more blunt, the ISO from one camera model and one manufacturer to another are not the same.

You're just flat out wrong about that.

Reply
Nov 10, 2020 17:33:57   #
rmalarz Loc: Tempe, Arizona
 
"just say it is a way of making the sensor more or less sensitive to light"

Let's not because that is flat out incorrect.

Digital cameras have only one sensitivity, given by the quantum efficiency of the sensor, and the transmission of the optics and filters over the sensor. ISO is simply a post-sensor gain applied to the signal from the sensor.

--Bob

PhotogHobbyist wrote:
I am not an expert in photography but after reading through a lot of this thread, I think the easiest way is to NOT get into the detailed and explicit explanation or description, just say it is a way of making the sensor more or less sensitive to light in a similar way that the granules of photosensitivity chemicals reacted to light for film.

I'm a firm believer in the KISS method of explanation.

Reply
Nov 10, 2020 17:37:16   #
srt101fan
 
PhotogHobbyist wrote:
I am not an expert in photography but after reading through a lot of this thread, I think the easiest way is to NOT get into the detailed and explicit explanation or description, just say it is a way of making the sensor more or less sensitive to light in a similar way that the granules of photosensitivity chemicals reacted to light for film.

I'm a firm believer in the KISS method of explanation.


KISS is OK except when it's wrong. ISO does NOT make "the sensor more or less sensitive to light."

Reply
Nov 10, 2020 17:48:25   #
srt101fan
 
Wallen wrote:
"ISO in digital world is a big lie perpetuated by the manufacturers to sweeten their sales."

It seems my short answer is being misconstrued as a rant or just a BS remark.
So I guess, a long answer is needed.

First of all, the comment is my own stand and I am not pushing my agenda on anyone. Just clarifying my view and from where I am looking at it.

I meant no BS for anyone and literally meant what is written there. IN THE DIGITAL WORLD - that comment about ISO is only about Digital cameras & how the manufacturers distort it for their gain (pun intended).

Ysarex made a very nice post about it and I am not contesting that. I did however follow up an answer that (for me) it does not matter what those ISO standards are in relation to cameras because it allows the manufacturer to make their own standards. Hence the reality is that there is variance or to make it more blunt, the ISO from one camera model and one manufacturer to another are not the same.

Hence I say, just use it as a tool like a volume control but something that affects brightness instead of loudness. This is meant to relate one idea which is common to many, to an unknown. It was not a literal conversion, just the gist of the matter.

The above reasons are why I do not bother with ISO standards as it is not standard amongst the tools it was supposed to be on. I take it at face value and use it like what it used to be in the film days but knowing fully well it is a different technology.

If anyone wants to be really technical and know the full details read up on an this previous post:
https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-671081-1.html

https://www.visiononline.org/userassets/aiauploads/file/cvp_the-fundamentals-of-camera-and-image-sensor-technology_jon-chouinard.pdf
Take note on pages 52-59

To really appreciate and compare one camera with another, view this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqG7Raj-iWo

The above are engineering & manufacturing information and are the real essence of the equipment.

For those who wonder why there is a variance in ISO, and why manufacturers are allowed to make their own standards, consider the following:
1. Technology changes rapidly
2. Manufacturers do not like to share technology
3. Digital ISO is trying to put a definite value on the outcome of different physical equipment matched with different processes.
I.E. CCD vs CMOS & each manufacturers has their own Analog-digital processes.
4. Age. As equipment age, its performance will also change.
5. Advertisement & Sales
6. Business vs compliance
7. Digital ISO is a product of many parts & process within the camera, not a single sensitivity value that ASA is.
8. Digital ISO is meant as an equivalent or transfer of previous knowledge, so it was made for representing something else it was not.
"ISO in digital world is a big lie perpetuate... (show quote)


Thanks, Wallen, I suspected your earlier comment was just an off the cuff remark. You've now clarified your view.

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Nov 10, 2020 17:53:27   #
rebride
 
Here is a cool video on ISO and invariance -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR8wz0Zroio&fbclid=IwAR36QlL8AtnmxxioyzKmBuXTzJjPM8lmpTxjc1QxFDOr3nDOYyFGBUbJvAI

He uses a Fuji camera but still good general information.

Reply
Nov 10, 2020 17:53:52   #
frankraney Loc: Clovis, Ca.
 
Wallen wrote:
To each his own. As I've said before, I take the manufacturers ISO with a grain of salt.
I just use it as another tool in the camera and do not overthink of the standards as they do not comply to it.
As of now they are just words. Until the time I see an ISO seal on my camera, only then would I bother.

As for liking digital, I love digital cameras. They allow me freedom I do not have before.
I just hate the wrong advertising.



First off, there is a standard for ISO. It is not a standard that is required to be stamped. If manufacturers did not follow the standard, they would not stay in business.

Please show us proof that one camera compared to another will have the same exposure with one at 1000 iso and the other at 2000.

Advertising is just that. If one manufacture says they are better than another, it is usually (I haven't heard otherwise) in noise reduction, or something else, like lighter to carry, easier access to functions, but they FOLLOW THE ISO STANDARD.

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Nov 10, 2020 18:14:01   #
Wallen Loc: Middle Earth
 
Ysarex wrote:
You're just flat out wrong about that.


I really do not want to answer your post as we never look at the same thing with the same understanding but you are forcing me to do so.

These are excerpts from you previous posts supporting my claim:

"ISO 2721 uses the term nominal exposure and assumes that the nominal exposure is an arithmetic mean exposure value, which usually corresponds to the mid-tone in photographs of average scenes."
(Nominal, assumes & usually are words that I would not use to claim a standard.)

"Start with Gene's post a couple pages back: https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-673105-2.html#11729175 and read that excerpt and note that it refers multiple times to two different measures for ISO: SOS (Standard Output Sensitivity) and REI (Recommended Exposure Index) ."

"In practice however the distinction between those values amounts to about 1/2 a stop.
The REI measure contains a fudge factor. The ISO standard is written to allow each camera manufacturer to use either measure with the caveat that they have to tell you -- it's in the exif data."

"The end result is that if you own a camera that uses SOS to determine ISO values and another camera that uses REI to determine ISO values they won't meter the same exposure identically at the same ISO values. My Fuji cameras use SOS and my Canon uses REI."

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Nov 10, 2020 18:14:09   #
bleirer
 
Saw this into on DXOMark website, it seems to jibe with ISO being standard on jpeg but not necessarily on raw, which I believe is consistent with most of the posts.

https://www.dxomark.com/glossary/iso-speed/

It does give the measured vs. Manufacturer ISO for each camera and they are often not the same. Example for Canon 5ds

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Canon/EOS-5DS---Measurements

Same for Canon RP

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Canon/EOS-RP---Measurements

Reply
 
 
Nov 10, 2020 18:15:13   #
John O.
 
three.toed wrote:
Hello - New to this forum. I used to take a few pictures with slides and I maybe understood what ISO meant (the amount of chemical on the film that provided more or less light to be captured and hence more or less detail). I cannot figure out what ISO does in Digital Cameras. This image of two Norther Mockingbirds Squabbling was taken at F4 - 1/2000 - ISO 100. Where is the sweet spot for ISO or is that all a matter of personal choice? I understand a little about speed and ISO but what does ISO really do? Thanks for any information or comments you can provide.
Hello - New to this forum. I used to take a few pi... (show quote)


The simple answer is: Film was sold by a film speed called ASA. The higher the number the more light sensitive the film was. ASA 25 had to have brighter light whereas ASA 200 could be used in dimmer light. ISO is the new term. Digital cameras now let you dial in your ASA rating from ASA 100 to over ASA 16,000.

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Nov 10, 2020 18:20:19   #
Boone Loc: Groundhog Town USA
 
three.toed wrote:
I understand it is not, but what is it?


SIMPLY PUT:

In the film days you had to set the ASA at a specific setting...like ASA 64, 100, 200, 400, etc...etc.
They were "FIXED SETTINGS"...much like the THERMOSTAT IN YOUR HOUSE. ISO works the same way except is works like a "RHEOSTAT FOR YOUR SENSOR". Thus the settings in between 100, 200, 400, etc...etc.

It is as simple as that!!!

Thanks,
Boone.

Reply
Nov 10, 2020 18:23:14   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
Wallen wrote:
I really do not want to answer your post as we never look at the same thing with the same understanding but you are forcing me to do so.

These are excerpts from you previous posts supporting my claim:

"ISO 2721 uses the term nominal exposure and assumes that the nominal exposure is an arithmetic mean exposure value, which usually corresponds to the mid-tone in photographs of average scenes."
(Nominal, assumes & usually are words that I would not use to claim a standard.)

"Start with Gene's post a couple pages back: https://www.uglyhedgehog.com/t-673105-2.html#11729175 and read that excerpt and note that it refers multiple times to two different measures for ISO: SOS (Standard Output Sensitivity) and REI (Recommended Exposure Index) ."

"In practice however the distinction between those values amounts to about 1/2 a stop.
The REI measure contains a fudge factor. The ISO standard is written to allow each camera manufacturer to use either measure with the caveat that they have to tell you -- it's in the exif data."

"The end result is that if you own a camera that uses SOS to determine ISO values and another camera that uses REI to determine ISO values they won't meter the same exposure identically at the same ISO values. My Fuji cameras use SOS and my Canon uses REI."
I really do not want to answer your post as we nev... (show quote)


The ISO standard details/documents both SOS and REI. And every camera maker identifies in the exif data which standard measure is used in that camera. How does that "...allow(s) the manufacturer to make their own standards." How is that a big lie?

And does the standard specify that all camera makes and models should perform to a specific tolerance level relative to each other over ISO? You don't get to make up requirements and then complain when they don't meet your requirement.

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Nov 10, 2020 18:41:48   #
Wallen Loc: Middle Earth
 
Ysarex wrote:
The ISO standard details/documents both SOS and REI. And every camera maker identifies in the exif data which standard measure is used in that camera. How does that "...allow(s) the manufacturer to make their own standards." How is that a big lie?


Now your changing the question to which I answered to just to make yourself correct.
Those are 2 different question you are stitching together for your own perusal.
Since I have already answered why I believe "Digital ISO is a lie" in my previous post, I wont bother.

As for the other question, you actually posted it:
"The current ISO standard for digital cameras (ISO 12232:2019) was written by the camera manufacturers. They have an organization, Camera & Imaging Products Association, http://www.cipa.jp/index_e.html that did the work and wrote and updated the current ISO standard."


I really do not want any conversation with you as you have the penchant to put your own words as mine.

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