rts2568 wrote:
achammar wrote:
jmdusty wrote:
Just one quick point and I too have been a computer nerd since Tandy Dose days, long before "Chicago" which is windows. If a file, jpeg or txt is say 1.5k, it will remain 1.5k no mater how any times you move it. BUT... re-save a jpeg and it will no longer be 1.5k.
Dusty
This is exactly correct. That is because Windows Explorer makes an exact copy. Jpegs can not be changed by the operating system. Windows Explorer is not cabable of changing a jpeg in any way. It only knows to make an exact copy when copying or moving, and that's all it knows that it must do successfully. The only way a jpeg can change is by some kind of photo editing software, and then be resaved as many have already mentioned. You are completely safe to move or copy files with windows explorer all you want, and as many times as you want, but I recommend copying, then deleting the old copy in place of moving. Also, just as a precaution, don't let any photo software copy files for you just to be on the safe side. Do it manually and it will never degrade.
I know I've posted this a couple of times now, but as rts2568 and many others posted, I do not want you to get the wrong idea that jpegs cannot degrade. They are lossless if you open them and resave them. If you want to copy one (or more)...do not open it/them. Use Windows Explorer and just copy it manually and the copy will be identical, even if you copy the copy a million times over and the last copy will be exactly the same as the original. That's the only point I was trying to make is that it is safe to copy (or move) files directly with no change.
But also there has been lots of other good advice by many others such as saving as Tiff and keeping that as an original since it is lossless when working with it.
quote=jmdusty Just one quick point and I too have... (
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To Dusty
From rts2568
How many times do you have to be told: you state above - "... jpegs cannot degrade... They are lossless if you open them and resave them...." No wonder people are confused!
Can you also tell us what operating system you use to run software editing packages like Photoshop for instance. Lots of us out here would love to find out about it so that we can do post processing in whatever editing/graphics program we have invested in and safely (without loss) edit JPEGs Such an operating system that you infer about, would be an asset to many I suggest. No doubt youll provide info on this by return?
I don't know of anyone who tries to post process or alter in any way, a photo or other graphic anything, in a Windows Explorer window. So can you tell us why anyone might try, maybe we will actually learn something from you? Youve obviously mentioned it for a reason, havent you? Gee, if only we knew how, it would save us all a fortune by not having to buy outside-of-Windows programs like Light room. Oh, perhaps its linked somehow to Windows Paint? And all these years weve all missed the link/thread, or are there other applications attached to Explorer maybe that allow the editing of JPEGs?
You say above:
You are completely safe to move or copy files with windows explorer all you want, and as many times as you want, but I recommend copying, then deleting the old copy in place of moving
I assume here, and I would think many others might be asking; why is that Dusty inferring that moving a file is not safe when transferring JPEGs that is what you are
recommend(ing)
dusty, or am I making a mistake when interpreting this sentence of yours? Please tell us where we have gone wrong, if so. We really do need to get this clear from someone who knows all this stuff that we dont and if moving a file is not safe for JPEGs, then we need to know; after all, you wrote
It (Windows) only knows to make an exact copy when copying or moving... Not only that but we need clarification on the point of how to safely transfer any JPEG file one minute and then why you contradict yourself. Must be our interpretation, surely? So why are you recommending copying, deleting and not
moving
and why is this method safer for JPEG security than moving? So far, this lossless JPEG thing you outline is about as clear as mud to me right now heaven only knows what the real beginner is thinking!
Youve also written:
don't let any photo software copy files for you just to be on the safe side
Im all for being on the safe side, and Ive heard of automation before also, but this has thrown me. Software that does its own thing? Wow; computer stuff has really passed me by, missed that one! Anyway, why is
photo software
more likely to be less responsible for the data they copy than this marvelously perfect Windows operating system. Dear oh dear, cant copy, dont move, delete, special software we dont yet know about, an operating software that has remained in the shadows; just how much more can you warn us against, inform us of? Looking forward to your information filled reply Dusty, after all, what are we here for other than to be reliably and informatively be updated; especially those poor confused newbies out there, clearly Im one of them?
Ive attached an acquaintance who is pleading to be fully informed also, so I hope your reply will satisfy her.
Now, just to be clear here, you will no doubt have an answer to this following contradiction with your summation above. The attached Windows PAINT application window, gives the option of SAVE or SAVE AS. Can you also inform us therefore, why this WINDOWS (graphics) APPLICATION only offers these options, rather than the safer method you describe of COPY, or was that MOVE? Im sure we all want to know that Windows is not diddling us with an application that cant reliably save a JPEG file without losing data? Or is SAVE the safe way to retain a finished file? Oh damn, Im so confused, please help us all to become competent in JPEG files safe storage? Please!
Oh dear, so sorry Dusty, we must first SAVE AS into a TIFF file, before we do any more editing or before saving, silly me! Oh, but in that case, why does PAINT include the option to save anything, if it cant do so in a safe way? But of course, you mentioned in your second paragraph that
They (JPEGs) are lossless if you open them and resave them
rts2568
quote=achammar quote=jmdusty Just one quick poin... (
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To rts2568,
I think you meant this to be for me, not Dusty.
First off, I did not say "jpegs cannot degrade."
You did not put in the complete sentance... I said "I do not want you to get the wrong idea that jpegs cannot degrade."
Now on the other hand, I see where I made a mistake that would clearly confuse someone...The very next statement:
"They are lossless if you open them and resave them"...was supposed to be "NOT lossless". That was my mistake for going to fast I suppose...nonetheless, I am sorry about that.
As for the rest of my post, I don't know where any other confusement lies. You are nitpicking every word and twisting things up and I'm not sure why, but being very sarcastic. Other than the mistake I just mentioned, I do not see any contradictions. I am very computer literate and I am also a software designer myself, but I can't imagine that what I posted is outside the realm of most users.
To reiterate..
1. There is automated software that will move or copy files. I wrote some myself that I use so I know exactly how they work and that they are safe to use, and there are plenty of other software out there. The reason I recommended not using automated software was because I didn't want to try to list which ones I know were safe to use, and that there are probably some that may not work so well, that's why I threw in "just to be on the safe side"...although there is automated software that is safe for your files.
2. I don't know why you are sarcastic by saying "Magical". There is nothing magical about copying or moving files with Windows Explorer which is what the Windows operating system uses. Maybe some of the readers don't know the difference between moving and copying (cutting or copying), so that's my bad. So for those that don't..when you move a file (cut and paste) the system does exactly that...it moves the file from where it is at, to where you tell it to move it to. The original file is no longer in it's original place. When you copy a file (Copy and paste), it duplicates the file and puts the copy in the new place, and the original is also still in it's spot, so now you have 2 copies of the same file in 2 different locations that are identical.
The reason I recommended copying then deleting over moving (and I meant this in the case if you WANT something moved and not copied) was that if Windows is in the middle of moving a file, and the power goes out, you may lose the file completly which is what used to happen. I think that may be fixed in Windows now, but I do not know that for sure, and I still would not take that chance) If Windows is copying, instead of moving, and the power goes out, at least the original will still be there.
Whether you move or copy something with Windows Explorer, the file will be an exact match of the original, no matter how many times you do it...even using the copied file of a copied file as many times as you want. That is dead truth without any doubt. So you are safe in copying ANY file as many times as you want as long as you do it manually with Windows Explorer by copy and paste, or drag or whatever method you prefer. I'm not trying to say jpegs are lossless, I am just trying to tell whoever wants to know that you can move or make copies of jpegs that will be lossless in this manner.
I'm not quite sure what I said that made you think I said you could open Photoshop on a certain operating system and save jpegs losslessly...there is no operating system that can do that.
At no time did I disagree that you can not open a jpeg in any software and resave it losslessly except in the sentence where I made a mistake which was clearly a large mistake...so, short and sweet the only 2 points I have been trying to make all along:
1. jpegs are NOT lossless, you can not open them and resave them or save as to another location losslessly...it WILL degrade every time and if you SAVE AS, it will save a new file as it is in it's current state in the program it is open in but it will degrade, even if you have made no changes.
2. You can make copies of jpegs as many times as you want over and over again a milllion times (even copies of copies) with no loss or degradation if they are not open and are copied with the operating system...ie..Windows Explorer