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NEF (RAW) + JPEG fine
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Jun 6, 2020 13:48:15   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
montephoto wrote:
..... Then YOU decide.


Exactly

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Jun 6, 2020 13:55:05   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
montephoto wrote:
Go watch Steve Perry on YouTube. He explains this all very well with examples. Then YOU decide.


Presumably https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_z9MZPlKvM

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Jun 6, 2020 16:30:28   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
amfoto1 wrote:
One reason for that is the RAW file cameras capture is in "14-bit" or "12-bit" color (Nikon lets you choose smaller 12-bit if you want to save memory card space and, in some cases, allow faster shooting... Canon simply takes all RAW as 14-bit. Others, I dunno. A few camera, mostly medium format digital, shoot in full 16-bit or higher color bit depth). JPEGs are "8-bit".

When you import a RAW file into your computer's post-processing software, most will interpolate it as a 16-bit file. To put this in perspective, across the Red-Green-Blue spectrum an 8-bit JPEG has approx. 17 million different colors and tonalities (this is plenty for many things, the human eye can only distinguish about 16 million distinct colors, at best). In comparison, a 16-bit file has around 25 trillion RGB colors and tonalities.
One reason for that is the RAW file cameras captur... (show quote)


Throwing out these different file bit depth values can be really misleading especially for beginners. It's not appropriate to compare the bit depth of a JPEG and raw file and just say one is bigger. That implies that the files are like-unit comparable over bit depth and they're not. Yes the digital storage containers are different sizes but the data stored inside those containers is not like-unit data.

Raw file data is linear and RGB or YCbCr file data is not. Raw file data is like having a ruler in which each unit on the ruler is the same value as each other unit on the ruler. The data in a JPEG file is like having a ruler in which the units each get progressively larger one unit to the next for the first half of the ruler and then start getting progressively smaller at a different rate for the second half of the ruler. With raw files each different ruler brand uses different size units so that a brand X 12 unit ruler and a brand Y 14 unit ruler could both be the same overall length.

In a raw file linear data for each pixel is stored as 12, 14, 16 bit per one color only. Pixels are either red, green or blue. There is no uniform linear unit of measure between cameras. In an RGB image non-linear data for each pixel is stored as 8, 16, 32 bit x 3 channels (RGB) so that for example in an 8 bit RGB image each pixel is actually defined by 24 bits of data. In a JPEG non-linear data for each pixel is stored as 8 bit x 3 channels (YCbCr) so that each pixel is actually defined by 24 bits of data.

It's correct to note that JPEGs are derived from raw files and that the original raw files contain more information than finally ends up in the JPEG but it's just wrong to list those bit depth figures as a suggestion of the content difference. Consider then this comparison which is also misleading: In a JPEG each single pixel can be one out of 16,777,216 colors but in a 14 bit raw file each pixel can only be one out of 16,384 colors.

Joe

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Jun 6, 2020 16:55:32   #
CatMarley Loc: North Carolina
 
quixdraw wrote:
Let the battle begin! I'm happy with JPEG Fine. Many others require only RAW, despite all the hoops you have to jump through. IMHO, a personal choice of how you pursue photography and what you enjoy doing!

Sorry - missed a turn - it is valuable if you use it in your workflow. I don't.


If I were shooting a friend's wedding, or another important event where every shot might be important, I would shoot raw and jpeg, so I could rescue shots that were not up to par exposure wise. But just for my own personal fun, jpegs are just fine!

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Jun 6, 2020 17:31:57   #
epd1947
 
kfoo wrote:
Is it good to shoot in this mod and is it different than “RAW”?


I think it’s a good approach for many things. Let’s take a situation in which you are on vacation for a week and take a substantial number of photos. You may well find that the jpegs created by the camera look fine and meet your needs. You still have all the RAW data available should there be some images that didn’t meet up to your expectations.

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Jun 6, 2020 19:01:37   #
Silverrails
 
Ysarex wrote:
You get the raw file either way and even if you only shoot raw you still get a JPEG. The camera is going to create the JPEG whether you want it or not because it embeds a copy of the JPEG into the raw file.

If you shoot raw + JPEG the implication is that you want the JPEG and should then expose to get as good a JPEG as possible. This will typically compromise the raw file to some degree as the exposure that creates a good JPEG is most likely reduced some from what you could apply to the raw file.

With digital sensors more exposure equals better image quality. However too much exposure nukes your highlights and your dead. It's kind of like playing chicken with a concrete wall. You want to stop as close to the wall as you can but never hit the wall. The camera engineers know this well and so when they adjust the software in your camera that creates JPEGs they tend to be conservative chicken players and they stop well before hitting the wall. You get a good JPEG and certainly a usable raw file.

But knowing what I just told you it starts to nag at you that your raw files could have been exposed more and would be just a little better. Most of the time it won't matter but then you eventually take a photo in which a little more exposure to the raw file really would have helped. Then you start considering just how good at playing chicken you can get and you start creating better raw files and bad JPEGs. Then there's no sense in creating bad JPEGs so you stop bothering.

You have a Nikon camera and Nikon's engineers play a pretty mean game of chicken. They cut the difference pretty close. This situation varies one camera maker to the next. I have a Fuji camera and they're as scared of that concrete wall as Trump is of an angry black woman. So if I expose to get a good JPEG with my Fuji my raw files are often underexposed by half of what they could be. I don't bother then to save the JPEGs since the exposures I set typically blow the JPEGs.

The moral of the story then is to a greater or lesser degree depending on the camera brand you can't set a best exposure for both the JPEG and raw -- you gotta pick one.

Joe
You get the raw file either way and even if you on... (show quote)


Thanks, your reply makes a lot of sense. I have never shot RAW because I have never learned P.P., so JPEG is my forte. Although I would like to learn P.P. so I can shoot RAW. Just need a patient teacher that can explain stuff easily to a 69 year old Photographer.

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Jun 6, 2020 19:22:25   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
Silverrails wrote:
Thanks, your reply makes a lot of sense. I have never shot RAW because I have never learned P.P., so JPEG is my forte. Although I would like to learn P.P. so I can shoot RAW. Just need a patient teacher that can explain stuff easily to a 69 year old Photographer.


You can get started and give it a try for no cost as long as you have a computer. You have a Nikon camera and Nikon makes two raw processing options available for you free. First choice is Nikon's own Capture NX-D here's the download page: https://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/products/162/Capture_NX-D.html

Second option is Capture One Express for Nikon which is very good: https://www.captureone.com/en/products-plans/capture-one-express/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhsSusanu6QIVkYbACh2ZywvBEAAYASAAEgIdHfD_BwE

Save some NEF files, download one or both of those programs and take a stab at it. You can't hurt anything.

Joe

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Jun 6, 2020 19:25:14   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
Ysarex wrote:
You can get started and give it a try for no cost as long as you have a computer. You have a Nikon camera and Nikon makes two raw processing options available for you free. First choice is Nikon's own Capture NX-D here's the download page: https://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/products/162/Capture_NX-D.html

Second option is Capture One Express for Nikon which is very good: https://www.captureone.com/en/products-plans/capture-one-express/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhsSusanu6QIVkYbACh2ZywvBEAAYASAAEgIdHfD_BwE

Save some NEF files, download one or both of those programs and take a stab at it. You can't hurt anything.

Joe
You can get started and give it a try for no cost ... (show quote)



Just jump in and experiment, but always keep the original, never replace it with an edited version.
Ya never know if you might decide to give it a different treatment later.
You'll also learn what various things in the editor do to the image.
(I'm 68.5)

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Jun 6, 2020 21:07:48   #
Retired CPO Loc: Travel full time in an RV
 
Ysarex wrote:
You get the raw file either way and even if you only shoot raw you still get a JPEG. The camera is going to create the JPEG whether you want it or not because it embeds a copy of the JPEG into the raw file.

If you shoot raw + JPEG the implication is that you want the JPEG and should then expose to get as good a JPEG as possible. This will typically compromise the raw file to some degree as the exposure that creates a good JPEG is most likely reduced some from what you could apply to the raw file.

With digital sensors more exposure equals better image quality. However too much exposure nukes your highlights and your dead. It's kind of like playing chicken with a concrete wall. You want to stop as close to the wall as you can but never hit the wall. The camera engineers know this well and so when they adjust the software in your camera that creates JPEGs they tend to be conservative chicken players and they stop well before hitting the wall. You get a good JPEG and certainly a usable raw file.

But knowing what I just told you it starts to nag at you that your raw files could have been exposed more and would be just a little better. Most of the time it won't matter but then you eventually take a photo in which a little more exposure to the raw file really would have helped. Then you start considering just how good at playing chicken you can get and you start creating better raw files and bad JPEGs. Then there's no sense in creating bad JPEGs so you stop bothering.

You have a Nikon camera and Nikon's engineers play a pretty mean game of chicken. They cut the difference pretty close. This situation varies one camera maker to the next. I have a Fuji camera and they're as scared of that concrete wall as Trump is of an angry black woman. So if I expose to get a good JPEG with my Fuji my raw files are often underexposed by half of what they could be. I don't bother then to save the JPEGs since the exposures I set typically blow the JPEGs.

The moral of the story then is to a greater or lesser degree depending on the camera brand you can't set a best exposure for both the JPEG and raw -- you gotta pick one.

Joe
You get the raw file either way and even if you on... (show quote)


Every one with any sense is scared of an angry black woman. You don't have to pick on PRESIDENT Trump. At least we know he has sense.

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Jun 6, 2020 21:28:20   #
Ysarex Loc: St. Louis
 
Retired CPO wrote:
Every one with any sense is scared of an angry black woman. You don't have to pick on PRESIDENT Trump. At least we know he has sense.


I'm cheering for angry black women. And in this case Trump was just too topical a choice since an angry black woman just emasculated the crybaby. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/d-c-mayor-bowser-has-black-lives-matter-painted-street-n1225746

Joe

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Jun 6, 2020 22:05:07   #
Quixdraw Loc: x
 
It is what you like - I prefer a 100 to 1 ratio ( minimally) camera vs. computer time. Whatever floats your boat!

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Jun 6, 2020 22:14:01   #
davyboy Loc: Anoka Mn.
 
Silverrails wrote:
Thanks, your reply makes a lot of sense. I have never shot RAW because I have never learned P.P., so JPEG is my forte. Although I would like to learn P.P. so I can shoot RAW. Just need a patient teacher that can explain stuff easily to a 69 year old Photographer.


You need to learn P.P. For editing jpegs as well

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Jun 6, 2020 22:31:02   #
DaveyDitzer Loc: Western PA
 
kfoo wrote:
Is it good to shoot in this mod and is it different than “RAW”?


Keep what you want or use and throw the rest away. So far pitching electrons doesn't seem to harm the environment.

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Jun 6, 2020 22:56:42   #
Retired CPO Loc: Travel full time in an RV
 
Ysarex wrote:
I'm cheering for angry black women. And in this case Trump was just too topical a choice since an angry black woman just emasculated the crybaby. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/d-c-mayor-bowser-has-black-lives-matter-painted-street-n1225746

Joe


Maybe I'm just an angry white man with an agenda. Aren't all of us white devils? I didn't see any emasculation going on. I did see an angry black woman attempt to over reach her authority.

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Jun 6, 2020 23:23:59   #
DaveyDitzer Loc: Western PA
 
How the heck did this thread jump from RAW Jpeg fine images to angry black women. I felt like I dozed off in one century and woke up in the next. WTH?

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