Ugly Hedgehog - Photography Forum
Home Active Topics Newest Pictures Search Login Register
Main Photography Discussion
Are you a true Photographer
Page <<first <prev 13 of 27 next> last>>
Apr 7, 2020 11:55:44   #
Bazbo Loc: Lisboa, Portugal
 
burkphoto wrote:
ALL dSLRs can be set to mimic an old film camera. Use a fixed ISO, in full manual mode, with no automatic focus. Set the meter to center-weighted averaging, or use a hand-held meter. Suddenly, you have a the equivalent of a Canon or Nikon from the 1960s — 1970s.

To mimic slide photography, record JPEGs. To mimic a particular slide film, adjust the menu settings to produce the look you like. Oh, you can use the white balance and hue controls to match the color of the light source to the camera's sensor, if you don't have that bag of color correction filters we used to carry.

To mimic B&W or color negative photography, however, you will need to record raw files at the camera and post-process them as you would in your own darkroom or at a photo lab. (JPEGs have the latitude of slide film. Raw files have a latitude that approaches that of negative films.)

It may surprise you that there is a select group of professionals who work this way on occasion. We grew up with film. Our old habits are still useful — on occasion. Of course, we don't use our gear that way very often, because the new tools are too good NOT to use! They open up possibilities we never had with film.

Having spent most of my career in the pro lab industry, I can tell you that many professional portrait photographers FREAKED OUT when digital imaging came of age. They were used to LABS doing all of their processing and printing, including color and density correction. Suddenly THEY were responsible for getting everything right at the camera as JPEGs, OR doing post-processing of raw files and creating perfect JPEGs for the lab, on THEIR computers. (Most had no computers, or they had wimpy PCs that were too old to run post-processing software, or they had cheap, uncalibrated monitors.)

Because pro portrait labs don't handle raw files (they certainly didn't in 2000-2005 when I managed our digital production departments), suddenly our customers and employees on the retail side had to learn precise exposure control, precise white balance, lighting contrast control, and that discipline at the camera that only 'chrome users truly knew. The old Kodak Vericolor and Portra films had pretty extreme latitude! We could scan and make salable prints from two stops under-exposure to almost three stops over-exposure of those films. JPEG latitude is about +0.33 stop, –0.67 stop. Raw latitude can be around +/– two stops, so the old film users had to choose what to learn!

Confronted with that choice, some of those guys and ladies reacted like rats in a Skinner box that had just pressed a button and received an electric shock to their feet (after pressing the same button for months to receive food). (In one of B.F. Skinner's behavioral conditioning experiments, the rats ran to a corner of the cage, shook in shock, perhaps tried the button a few more times, then huddled in the corner convulsing until death.)

In other words, some old film photographers ran to the nearest bar and got very drunk! When they woke up the next morning, many of them quit. They had no computer skills. They knew nothing of electronics. They really knew nothing about precise lighting control, exposure control, contrast control, color management, or any of the other parameters TOP pros and well-educated amateurs know and control daily. They discarded themselves, just like our film editors, film inspectors, optical printer operators... and others we had warned — nearly a decade earlier — that the change was coming. We had offered to send them to school FOR FREE to learn the computer! Out of several hundred, FIVE took us up on that offer.

One guy I tried to train for digital portraiture took my classes twice. Then he went home, sold his business, had a complete nervous breakdown, and entered a mental hospital for a while. He could not handle the change! That was an extreme case, but I'm sure there were milder but similar reactions. We had about 340 retail school photographers, over 1000 professional finishing customers and about 100 school portrait dealers. Many of our retail territories experienced 60% to 80% staff turnover. Our school portrait dealers did, too. Some of the "mom and pop" studio customers retired, switched to dying film labs, or sold their studios.

I have long suspected that many photographers who express "film purity" are really hiding their insecurity about learning new technical skills. I do get that. Learning to use a computer when you may have grown up thinking the only people who type are secretaries (a paradigm of the post-WWII, pre-PC era) would pre-dispose one to ignorance of all things computing. We had scores of such people in the lab.

My old boss from the early 1980s was one of those people. I loved that guy. I watched him struggle to learn graphics apps on the Mac in the late 1990s before he retired. I gave Ralph an A for effort. He finally did learn his way around the computer, but never could really type.

Another reason folks continue using film is that digital photography is EXPENSIVE. You may not need film, but you need the computer, software, monitor, color management tools, digital printer... in addition to a camera that will be obsolete in three to seven years. Then, you need the skills, knowledge, and training to use it all...

With an all-film workflow, you just buy consumables.

So (again), I'll conclude with this. I won't knock analog photography (I did it from 1960 as a five-year-old kid until 2005 when I loaded my last roll of slide film), if others won't knock digital photography. I don't see one as less valid than the other. A good photographer can make great images with either medium.

I do find digital a LOT easier, more precise, and more fun... when I have proper tools. But I WAS lucky — to learn to type at age 8, to have an Apple IIe for programming slide shows and writing scripts back in the 1980s, and to have a front row seat to the digital revolution, via my job. Those experiences made the difference for me.
ALL dSLRs can be set to mimic an old film camera. ... (show quote)


Thanks for the reference to the "Skinner box". Brought back some nice memories.

Reply
Apr 7, 2020 12:08:44   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
hochocke wrote:
I am in no way opposed to digital or darkroom modification/enhancement techniques, but would also appreciate seeing photographs posted on this site that are "straight out of the camera".


All images are "post-processed." It's just that some of them are post-processed from raw data in the camera, and some are processed later, on a computer.

The camera has a wide array of parametric tools you can set before exposure that affect the processing done immediately after exposure. The tools are much less granular and precise than tools available in post-processing software, but they are quite useful. In some situations, they are all that you might need.

Some cameras even let you record a raw image, then adjust the look of it with the menu settings on the camera, before saving a copy as a JPEG.

So really, what does Straight Out Of Camera even mean????????

Raw data is not an image. Raw FILES contain processed JPEG thumbnail previews we can see. So EVERY photograph we see is processed. To see an unprocessed image, you have to be looking at the ground glass of a view camera before the film pack is inserted. Even the EVF image on a digital camera is processed...

Reply
Apr 7, 2020 12:10:50   #
CHG_CANON Loc: the Windy City
 
Beauty is not in the eye, but in the mind, and knowing whether PhotoShop was used.

Reply
 
 
Apr 7, 2020 12:11:17   #
Architect1776 Loc: In my mind
 
burkphoto wrote:
All images are "post-processed." It's just that some of them are post-processed from raw data in the camera, and some are processed later, on a computer.

The camera has a wide array of parametric tools you can set before exposure that affect the processing done immediately after exposure. The tools are much less granular and precise than tools available in post-processing software, but they are quite useful. In some situations, they are all that you might need.

Some cameras even let you record a raw image, then adjust the look of it with the menu settings on the camera, before saving a copy as a JPEG.

So really, what does Straight Out Of Camera even mean????????

Raw data is not an image. Raw FILES contain processed JPEG thumbnail previews we can see. So EVERY photograph we see is processed. To see an unprocessed image, you have to be looking at the ground glass of a view camera before the film pack is inserted. Even the EVF image on a digital camera is processed...
All images are "post-processed." It's ju... (show quote)



Reply
Apr 7, 2020 12:19:30   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
burkphoto wrote:
All images are "post-processed." It's just that some of them are post-processed from raw data in the camera, and some are processed later, on a computer.

The camera has a wide array of parametric tools you can set before exposure that affect the processing done immediately after exposure. The tools are much less granular and precise than tools available in post-processing software, but they are quite useful. In some situations, they are all that you might need.

Some cameras even let you record a raw image, then adjust the look of it with the menu settings on the camera, before saving a copy as a JPEG.

So really, what does Straight Out Of Camera even mean????????

Raw data is not an image. Raw FILES contain processed JPEG thumbnail previews we can see. So EVERY photograph we see is processed. To see an unprocessed image, you have to be looking at the ground glass of a view camera before the film pack is inserted. Even the EVF image on a digital camera is processed...
All images are "post-processed." It's ju... (show quote)


Reply
Apr 7, 2020 12:26:27   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
Bazbo wrote:
Thanks for the reference to the "Skinner box". Brought back some nice memories.




Yeah, psychology was probably my favorite subject in college. Watching movies of Skinner's work, and reading about John Broadus Watson's work before it, was fascinating.

Watson was from Travelers Rest, SC, a few miles from Greenville, where I spent my high school years. I dated one of his descendants, while I was taking a summer school psych course at Furman U, Watson's alma mater, where I learned about him. Apparently HE was quite a character. My professor was more interested in the scandals of his later years than his theories.

Reply
Apr 7, 2020 12:30:52   #
Jules Karney Loc: Las Vegas, Nevada
 
GoofyNewfie wrote:
Did you mean Vericolor?
Verichrome was black and white and and I loved it!

This was shot on film. (Probably T-Max 100) Pretty much a straight print. Not digital, other than to scan the print.


Great work..Love everything about this shot. Brilliant..

Reply
 
 
Apr 7, 2020 12:33:17   #
burkphoto Loc: High Point, NC
 
Linda From Maine wrote:
Oh Bill, these kinds of UHH threads are popular for exactly that reason 🙂

.


HA HA! You are so right, Linda. The OP is probably laughing right now at his successful troll.

Reply
Apr 7, 2020 12:36:25   #
wmurnahan Loc: Bloomington IN
 
locustthorn wrote:
Seems like now days almost anyone with the Photo Shop and all the software on line consider themselves a Photographer. Seems like with all this software anyone with a little computer knowledge can doctor up a print. So many go out claiming to be Wedding and event Photographers then go into a software and make things look good. Would anyone without this software consider themselves a true Photographer? What did you do before all this software?


I, like you, learned in film. I shot mostly B&W and transparency with a 120 Rolleiflex or 35 Canon. The transparency made me make sure the exposure was right on, the framing right, the lighting etc. before I clicked the shutter but the B&W taught me to push things and play with them and with dodging and burning I could bring out things. Because of the slide work, my B&W was easy because my prints always had the same time, the exposures where consistent. The darkroom work with B&W is really not any different than Photoshop. I think a true photographer has both. He should be a master of his craft and in the past that included a darkroom now it is photoshop besides the camera work and the artistic eye. Photoshop is a tool, like the camera, and like any true craftsman, a true photographer would be a master of his tools.

Reply
Apr 7, 2020 12:39:12   #
Lemon Drop Kid Loc: Greeley, CO
 
I shot 532 weddings without Photoshop. Guess I fooled a lot of people.

Reply
Apr 7, 2020 12:39:35   #
d2b2 Loc: Catonsville, Maryland, USA
 
Just after Ansel Adams reached puberty, a friend of mine and I opened a tiny photo business. We were better at darkroom work than things through the lens. As a result, when Ritz was only comprised of 5 stores, we did all of their custom B&W development and print work.

Reply
 
 
Apr 7, 2020 12:40:06   #
Stephan G
 
burkphoto wrote:
All images are "post-processed." It's just that some of them are post-processed from raw data in the camera, and some are processed later, on a computer.

The camera has a wide array of parametric tools you can set before exposure that affect the processing done immediately after exposure. The tools are much less granular and precise than tools available in post-processing software, but they are quite useful. In some situations, they are all that you might need.

Some cameras even let you record a raw image, then adjust the look of it with the menu settings on the camera, before saving a copy as a JPEG.

So really, what does Straight Out Of Camera even mean????????

Raw data is not an image. Raw FILES contain processed JPEG thumbnail previews we can see. So EVERY photograph we see is processed. To see an unprocessed image, you have to be looking at the ground glass of a view camera before the film pack is inserted. Even the EVF image on a digital camera is processed...
All images are "post-processed." It's ju... (show quote)


Next you will be telling me that those prints spat out by my old Polaroid cameras were processed shots. Not SOOC???

Reply
Apr 7, 2020 12:41:46   #
E.L.. Shapiro Loc: Ottawa, Ontario Canada
 
I am a professional photographer- photography is my trade, my craft, my job, and sometimes my art. So...I guess I qualify for the title.

Back in 1958 my first employer and mentor taught me a simple philosophy that I strictly adhere to, to this day:

There are two basic kinds of photographers, the ones that TALK a good job and the ones that DO a good job and very seldom are they, same photographer. So...a a photographer is defined by his or her pictures- not by how they were made, what equipment is or was used, how or where the images were processed, or whether or not they were manipulated or somehow miraculously materialized right out of the camera without the means of any process- chemical, electronic, or mechanical. A photographer is no defined by what he or she says about their pictures but what their pictures say about them.

Perhaps we spend too much time on etymology, psychology, and nomenclature and not enough time DOING photography. Discussing methodology is good until it impedes creativity. Does it really make a difference, artistically speaking, if a film or print is processed in liquid chemistry or of there is an electronic process within a camera or computer? Theses are picayune points that accomplish little.

ALL photographs are manipulated even if they never go through a darkroom or a computer. The photographer is the manipulator because he or she selects their point of view, frames the image thereby including or excluding whatever elements they choose to. They can emphasize or understate an aspect of any scene, object or person. They can keep things in perspective or not. They can create a literal or abstract interpretation of anything, place or person.

There is no such things as an image right out of the camera unless you still shoot Polaroids or never process an image beyond a contact sheet, a thumbnail image, or never display it beyond the LCD screen in your camera. We, most of us, are no usually shooting 8x10 transparencies or 20x24 Polaroids If you never process your images, how are you going to enlarge them, print them, share them, display them, they decorate with them publish or share them on a screen? SOTC is a ridiculous and impossible acronym- my mother told me it's not nice to say "stupid"! Color slides are still processed- the don't jump out of the camera. If every photographer culled ever image that was not "perfect" before some manipulation, there wouldn't be many pictures left to see. If every photographer culled ever image before even shooting it because conditions were not ideal...think about that!

Face it- A lousy picture is a lousy picture whether it was loused up in the camera, the darkroom or the computer. Cropping, burning in, dodging, contrast control, color or tonal adjustments, whether they are performed on an enlarger in a darkroom or in your desk on a computer are all time-honored important parts of fine photography. If these manipulations are poorly crafted or applied, call attention to themselves, and become distracting from the motif of the image- don't blame the process- blame the inapt photographer.

There is nothing- wrong with old film and plate processes- wet plate, daguerrotypes, cyanotypes, traditional wet darkroom work, or whatever else anyone wants to continue to do to delve into. For most photographers, professionals, amateurs, snapshooters, serious workers, and casual photographers, however- some of y'all insist on living in the past and pining for equipment, materials, and supplies that no longer exist. If you spend all your time mourning the loss of your favorite film, trying to concoct chemistry that is no longer produced, and incessantly talking about the good old days, you won't have any time left over to TAKE PICTURES! The best images you are going to make going forward are in the FUTURE!

Listen, some of y'all- the good old days weren't all that good. I spent half my life in a darkroom and color lab and when I had no time to be there, I hired staff and paid them good money to work in there. I don't miss one minute of it- working with gallons of toxic chemicals and engaging in an ongoing war with spots, stains, chemical and water contamination, temperature fluctuations, oxidation, and bad smells. I garnered a "reputation" as a "master printer"- they said "Ed can take a bad negative, print it on toilet paper, develop it in chicken soup and create a "salon print". WOW- I was flattered! All I can say is if you could do it back in the day, you can achieve the same or better quality with the latest technology. If you can make a good clean file you can make a good final image.

I usually do not participate in all theses recurrent threads about "what is a professional- who is a photographer- who's on first and what's on the second...etc.??? They remind me of that "kid"- there's probably one in every family, who is 30-years old, doesn't have a job and lives in his parent's basement. He doesn't work because he has not as yet "found himself", he is in the wrong "headspace" or in a "bad or dark place" My advice is that basements have low ceilings and don't allow for much "headspace" and it's dark down in the cellar- get out of there and get a life!

If you want to find out who is good, great, bad, or whatever "photographer" don't listen to what he or she says, care about what kinda gear they have, or how they process or don't process their image- just have a look at their pictures and make up your own mind! If you lie them, THEN ask how he or she did them. If you don't like tjhem- don't be the " bad carpenter who blames the OTHER GUY'S TOOLS"! Is there such a carpenter?

Reply
Apr 7, 2020 12:44:07   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
Stephan G wrote:
Next you will be telling me that those prints spat out by my old Polaroid cameras were processed shots. Not SOOC???

I believe he was referring to digital cameras.
(Unless you want to change the context.)

Reply
Apr 7, 2020 12:47:25   #
Picture Taker Loc: Michigan Thumb
 
I feel that you must shoot as if you don't have software to fix it. That does not have to be you don't or can't use the software but it should not be a your intent to fix it. But yto help it.

Reply
Page <<first <prev 13 of 27 next> last>>
If you want to reply, then register here. Registration is free and your account is created instantly, so you can post right away.
Main Photography Discussion
UglyHedgehog.com - Forum
Copyright 2011-2024 Ugly Hedgehog, Inc.