What to charge
Nov 28, 2019 09:44:16 #
jbk224
Loc: Long Island, NY
I'm not a pro. But I am in business. You've expressed your goal is to get noticed for more work. The ? is how much should you charge.
Everything you've heard here so far is good; but there are too many ? not addressed. Where are you located? Who is the competition? What are the going rates in your area for this type of work? Who is this jazz group? Are they a known entity? Do they have a recording contract? Have they published before? Or, are they a fledgling group looking to put themselves out there..locally? As noted earlier, what will they do with your pictures? How will they be used and distributed? Who will see these pics and say..'heh who's the photog here? How do I get in touch with him?' So, the first answer you need is ...who will notice my work..how many will notice my work..where are they located...and what kind of business can I hope to generate from this event? If your answer is 'limited exposure' to people who will actually need a pro--then you need to make sure you get paid for your work so that, at the end of the day, you feel that whatever you charged; you have absolutely no thoughts that it was not enough. If this gig will not meet your goal for 'real' exposure; then you need to get paid upfront for your time and efforts. If, on the other hand, the exposure and future work possibilities are significant; you can then factor in other issues, such as: what are the other options for this group, who is the competition, what is the going rate for shooting an event of this type in 'my' area? And then, if you want to do this event; you need to have the right contract that will protect the use of your pics; and limit their use unless you are properly paid. Address these questions to focus your business plan. If this is what I think it is...no name group that has no money, in a no name venue; that cannot afford the going rates for pro work; then everything here will point to whether or not you want to do 'charity' work. I can think of better ways to promote your work to people who will need your services in the future--if you are prepared to do this for 'nothing'. In the end, it all comes down to how you value your services and time. Good luck. Be sure to post here if you take the gig.
Everything you've heard here so far is good; but there are too many ? not addressed. Where are you located? Who is the competition? What are the going rates in your area for this type of work? Who is this jazz group? Are they a known entity? Do they have a recording contract? Have they published before? Or, are they a fledgling group looking to put themselves out there..locally? As noted earlier, what will they do with your pictures? How will they be used and distributed? Who will see these pics and say..'heh who's the photog here? How do I get in touch with him?' So, the first answer you need is ...who will notice my work..how many will notice my work..where are they located...and what kind of business can I hope to generate from this event? If your answer is 'limited exposure' to people who will actually need a pro--then you need to make sure you get paid for your work so that, at the end of the day, you feel that whatever you charged; you have absolutely no thoughts that it was not enough. If this gig will not meet your goal for 'real' exposure; then you need to get paid upfront for your time and efforts. If, on the other hand, the exposure and future work possibilities are significant; you can then factor in other issues, such as: what are the other options for this group, who is the competition, what is the going rate for shooting an event of this type in 'my' area? And then, if you want to do this event; you need to have the right contract that will protect the use of your pics; and limit their use unless you are properly paid. Address these questions to focus your business plan. If this is what I think it is...no name group that has no money, in a no name venue; that cannot afford the going rates for pro work; then everything here will point to whether or not you want to do 'charity' work. I can think of better ways to promote your work to people who will need your services in the future--if you are prepared to do this for 'nothing'. In the end, it all comes down to how you value your services and time. Good luck. Be sure to post here if you take the gig.
Nov 28, 2019 11:23:36 #
seeker613 wrote:
I recently showed an old acquaintance my 'brag lis... (show quote)
Way too low.
2 hours and all the prep and post?
I would consider $1,000.00 for a student with limited budget as fair for both.
Nov 28, 2019 11:49:31 #
Charge for 1/2 day (4 hrs.) at $500 divided by 4 = $125 per hour, plus post processing at $75 minimum plus other eg mileage at 56 cents per (let's say 15 mile minimum) @ $8.40......... So 125+75+8.50 = $210 (rounded)......... Could be more due to post processing, mileage and method of delivery.
Nov 28, 2019 11:49:34 #
Charge for 1/2 day (4 hrs.) at $500 divided by 4 = $125 per hour, plus post processing at $75 minimum plus other eg mileage at 56 cents per (let's say 15 mile minimum) @ $8.40......... So 125+75+8.50 = $210 (rounded)......... Could be more due to post processing, mileage and method of delivery.
Nov 28, 2019 12:00:38 #
What Ed said. You need to carefully consider what an hour of your time should cost given your investment in equipment, training and software. Don't forget setup and breakdown time and driving time. Also consider the amount and value of the equipment used. With digital, DO NOT FORGET PP time. Personally, I do not, under any circumstances, provide raw files to anyone. When I do an outdoor headshot, 30 minutes tops. 1 camera, 1 lens, a flash, perhaps two. Minimal PP. A wedding (which I don't do anymore) at least two of everything, multiple lights, lenses etc. Prep time, cleanup, travel, lots of PP. Much more expensive. Finally there's use of images. A few prints or a national campaign? An album cover? You need to think about all this and more and then build in a few bucks for you. Come up with and hourly cost. Perhaps $ 250/hour as an example. Perhaps you then can give a nice discount to generate exposure. If you want to run a business, you must think like a businessman. Best of luck.
Nov 28, 2019 12:10:43 #
cjc2 wrote:
What Ed said. You need to carefully consider what... (show quote)
Once you have discounted your price you have devalued your work to that value. It is saying "I am over charging you and here is my real price".
Tell the client, I do X for $X. If that is too much I will reduce services and product to meet your budget to meet your needs but all other work requested will be charged as an additional service payable in advance.
Cutting prices up front for promotion is not good, just offer a smaller package and time for a smaller overall fee.
Nov 28, 2019 12:12:32 #
jbk224
Loc: Long Island, NY
Architect1776 wrote:
Once you have discounted your price you have devalued your work to that value. It is saying "I am over charging you and here is my real price".
Tell the client, I do X for $X. If that is too much I will reduce services and product to meet your budget to meet your needs but all other work requested will be charged as an additional service payable in advance.
Cutting prices up front for promotion is not good, just offer a smaller package and time for a smaller overall fee.
Tell the client, I do X for $X. If that is too much I will reduce services and product to meet your budget to meet your needs but all other work requested will be charged as an additional service payable in advance.
Cutting prices up front for promotion is not good, just offer a smaller package and time for a smaller overall fee.
👍
Nov 28, 2019 12:30:16 #
seeker613 wrote:
I recently showed an old acquaintance my 'brag lis... (show quote)
You have two situations here. The shoot and then the rights for him to use the photos. The shoot also consists of editing the pics. The cost for him to use the photos is based on number of reproductions ets. So for a CD cover if he is going to print 1000 covers, the cost is per cover. If he is going to use the photo(s) on a web site then that is another charge. All of this would be stated in the contract.
Nov 28, 2019 12:32:46 #
amfoto1
Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA
I would charge a half day for the shoot... $800. That's my minumum, but I can pretty much guarantee you that you'll put in far more than "two hours". There's always advance work: I'd want to go to the venue to check it out and see what's needed. There's advance planning with the client(s) and docs to discuss and sign, not to mention your own prep work to do. Also, setting up lights, prepping the location, etc. There will be time spent getting model releases signed by everyone (if anyone is younger than 18, a parent or guardian's signature will be needed). Someone almost always shows up late or forgets a piece of clothing they wanted to use, has to go back for it and you end up waiting on them. Then there will be post-processing.
100 images in 2 hours? Sometimes I take 100 images in 2 minutes! So they're offering you $1.50 per image?
Maybe you'll agree to provide 100 images at the end... but I bet you take far more, which in turn will mean time spent selecting the "keepers". Then you'll probably proof out at least several hundred images for them to choose among (keep them lower quality and watermarked, so they don't actually use them at this stage).
GET EVERYTHING IN WRITING! Verbal contracts are only as good as the paper they're written on!
Especially make clear that you retain copyright (it's pretty surprising how often photo copyright infringement seems to occur with musicians, who you'd think would have high regard and respect for copyright ownership since misuse of their work is a major concern for them too).
Rather than discount from "going rates", give more value.... 125 images instead of 100... or throw in a couple framed prints from the session they can hang on their studio wall... or whatever. This is usually better than discounting from your rates, which is like telling people "my work is worth less".
Someone mentioned mileage... I only charge for it when it's over 100 miles (50 miles each way).... And even then I'm pretty flexible. Can't recall charging anyone for it recently. Seems "nit picky" to me.
Buyers like a "flat fee"... they then know exactly how much to budget for the job and that there will be no surprises.
One approach would be to say "I can do a quick shoot for you at my studio for $150, though it will be less than an hour and there would be licensing fees for each image you choose to use from that shoot." In other words, adapt their monetary offer to terms that are more realistic... Then suggest alternatives such as the "two hour" (half-day) shoot at your set rate at their location.
Your "set rate" should be based upon your own "cost of doing business plus reasonable profit" and going rates in your area. Where I am, $200 an hour for shooting, $100 an hour for post-processing is pretty reasonable. And for location work I set the minimum of a half-day, four hours, because it's pretty much impossible to do more than two events in a day, even when the clients are asking for "only one or two hours". In fact, it's usually a lot more hours than just the time spent actually shooting. Hence, my half day minimum for a job like you described.
I DO work some "deals" with other types of jobs... such as charging four different clients $200 apiece for a location shoot, at the same time and location. I also shoot a lot "on spec"... no up front fees at all, but charges for products, services and licensed usage after the fact.
I get turned down a lot from people wanting to pay less, who simply don't have the budget... But that's okay. There are some people who simply can't afford you and you'd go broke trying to meet them all.
Also look for alternate revenue for yourself you might generate from the shoot. For example, maybe the models need something for their portfolio from the session. There's always stock usage too, after the fact (which occasionally has been good for significant future returns, when an unknown band has gone on to become a big hit). Properly and fully model released photos are much more valuable for stock, than unreleased ones.
Of course, there are other approaches when it comes to shooting bands. Some of the best photography has been sort of a collaboration between photographer and band... the photographer almost being "embedded"... attending many performances and even just "hanging out" with the band, shooting practice sessions, etc. I bet a lot of the time those were more like "a friend with a camera" than an "official photographer". I mention this because you describe the person who asked you to shoot as an "old acquaintance".
Also, don't read too much into the "models". Maybe they're paid... Maybe not. Maybe they are more like groupies! Or even spouses or kids or other relatives. A lot of aspiring models trade for exposure too, don't get paid. It's not uncommon for deals between photographers and models.
Are you the only photographer? If they've already got models lined up, maybe they've also got another photographer (things could get messy!) or are shooting a video?
100 images in 2 hours? Sometimes I take 100 images in 2 minutes! So they're offering you $1.50 per image?
Maybe you'll agree to provide 100 images at the end... but I bet you take far more, which in turn will mean time spent selecting the "keepers". Then you'll probably proof out at least several hundred images for them to choose among (keep them lower quality and watermarked, so they don't actually use them at this stage).
GET EVERYTHING IN WRITING! Verbal contracts are only as good as the paper they're written on!
Especially make clear that you retain copyright (it's pretty surprising how often photo copyright infringement seems to occur with musicians, who you'd think would have high regard and respect for copyright ownership since misuse of their work is a major concern for them too).
Rather than discount from "going rates", give more value.... 125 images instead of 100... or throw in a couple framed prints from the session they can hang on their studio wall... or whatever. This is usually better than discounting from your rates, which is like telling people "my work is worth less".
Someone mentioned mileage... I only charge for it when it's over 100 miles (50 miles each way).... And even then I'm pretty flexible. Can't recall charging anyone for it recently. Seems "nit picky" to me.
Buyers like a "flat fee"... they then know exactly how much to budget for the job and that there will be no surprises.
One approach would be to say "I can do a quick shoot for you at my studio for $150, though it will be less than an hour and there would be licensing fees for each image you choose to use from that shoot." In other words, adapt their monetary offer to terms that are more realistic... Then suggest alternatives such as the "two hour" (half-day) shoot at your set rate at their location.
Your "set rate" should be based upon your own "cost of doing business plus reasonable profit" and going rates in your area. Where I am, $200 an hour for shooting, $100 an hour for post-processing is pretty reasonable. And for location work I set the minimum of a half-day, four hours, because it's pretty much impossible to do more than two events in a day, even when the clients are asking for "only one or two hours". In fact, it's usually a lot more hours than just the time spent actually shooting. Hence, my half day minimum for a job like you described.
I DO work some "deals" with other types of jobs... such as charging four different clients $200 apiece for a location shoot, at the same time and location. I also shoot a lot "on spec"... no up front fees at all, but charges for products, services and licensed usage after the fact.
I get turned down a lot from people wanting to pay less, who simply don't have the budget... But that's okay. There are some people who simply can't afford you and you'd go broke trying to meet them all.
Also look for alternate revenue for yourself you might generate from the shoot. For example, maybe the models need something for their portfolio from the session. There's always stock usage too, after the fact (which occasionally has been good for significant future returns, when an unknown band has gone on to become a big hit). Properly and fully model released photos are much more valuable for stock, than unreleased ones.
Of course, there are other approaches when it comes to shooting bands. Some of the best photography has been sort of a collaboration between photographer and band... the photographer almost being "embedded"... attending many performances and even just "hanging out" with the band, shooting practice sessions, etc. I bet a lot of the time those were more like "a friend with a camera" than an "official photographer". I mention this because you describe the person who asked you to shoot as an "old acquaintance".
Also, don't read too much into the "models". Maybe they're paid... Maybe not. Maybe they are more like groupies! Or even spouses or kids or other relatives. A lot of aspiring models trade for exposure too, don't get paid. It's not uncommon for deals between photographers and models.
Are you the only photographer? If they've already got models lined up, maybe they've also got another photographer (things could get messy!) or are shooting a video?
Nov 28, 2019 14:17:07 #
Nov 28, 2019 14:29:01 #
RWR
Loc: La Mesa, CA
seeker613 wrote:
I recently showed an old acquaintance my 'brag lis... (show quote)
The obvious answer is ... what is the going rate for similar work in your area?
Nov 28, 2019 14:57:13 #
Nov 28, 2019 15:56:14 #
Architect is spot on: never discount your time, only services such as number of frames, or the numerous of hours.
Nov 29, 2019 00:53:53 #
cahale
Loc: San Angelo, TX
2 hours is just the time on site. Who is processing the shots? How far do you have to travel to get there? All those thing you mentioned have to take cost money. How much will 150 defray those costs? Is there a harder place to shoot than either a low light jazz club, or a light show atmosphere at a concert? I would find the 150 just a tad skimpy.
Nov 29, 2019 02:01:41 #
pdsilen
Loc: Roswell, New Mexico
I can understand what you're going through. I working on a gig right now for which I grossly undercharged the client. I'm too embarrassed to post what I charged him. But its all my fault for not paying close attention to his directions. As for your situation, If your shoot requires the quality for media promotion. I wouldn't charge any less than $1500. And make sure that you client and their models sign model releases for your own protection.
As for my situation I've spent most of my working life ins sales. And I've always put scruples and integrity first before profit. Therefore I see upping the price that I initially quoted as "bait-and-switch" that's something that a shyster used car salesman would do. What I'm going to do is to tell the client that I misunderstood what this job would entail. So, in all honesty I won't demand any more than what I quoted. But if you believe that the job is worth more than I'm charging I'll leave whatever action you'd like to take will be strictly up to you.
As for my situation I've spent most of my working life ins sales. And I've always put scruples and integrity first before profit. Therefore I see upping the price that I initially quoted as "bait-and-switch" that's something that a shyster used car salesman would do. What I'm going to do is to tell the client that I misunderstood what this job would entail. So, in all honesty I won't demand any more than what I quoted. But if you believe that the job is worth more than I'm charging I'll leave whatever action you'd like to take will be strictly up to you.
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