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Question re: Privacy
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Nov 7, 2019 09:19:31   #
camerapapi Loc: Miami, Fl.
 
One way to resolve this issue without any legal implications would be asking the owner of the land if it is alright to photograph the door. Actually, if you shoot from outside the property you are legally safe but why take a risk?
I bet the owner will be very pleased if you mention to him or her that you saw the beautiful door and wanted to photograph it. Do not use the image commercially because it could bring you lots of legal problems. Mention that you want the image for a photo competition among amateur photographers. I would be the first one surprised if you receive a NO as an answer.

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Nov 7, 2019 09:55:13   #
SonyBug
 
gvarner wrote:
We all take photos with buildings in them, either as the subject or the background. I don’t see what the problem would be.


Shoot and publish the Eiffel Tower and find out.

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Nov 7, 2019 11:53:42   #
LeeK Loc: Washington State
 
First, I want to thank everyone for their comments, information, and recommendations. As far as being on the private land itself, it might be a push. There were no fences but I stepped off the road a couple of feet to get a decent picture. When it comes right down to it, I probably won't enter the contest (I appreciate 'tomcat's' candidness). I think the picture was more significant to me because it was so unusual to see something like this. First the train tracks seemed to go on and on throughout the hills and, when we came upon the doors, I thought they were such a juxtaposition with the train track and the remote area. Also attractive. I also like to record the various places we explore. There were a couple other questions about the place. I'll get back to those with 'quote replies'.

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Nov 7, 2019 11:55:42   #
LeeK Loc: Washington State
 
camerapapi wrote:
One way to resolve this issue without any legal implications would be asking the owner of the land if it is alright to photograph the door. Actually, if you shoot from outside the property you are legally safe but why take a risk?
I bet the owner will be very pleased if you mention to him or her that you saw the beautiful door and wanted to photograph it. Do not use the image commercially because it could bring you lots of legal problems. Mention that you want the image for a photo competition among amateur photographers. I would be the first one surprised if you receive a NO as an answer.
One way to resolve this issue without any legal im... (show quote)


We actually came across the owner. Unfortunately, I did not think to ask him for permission at the time.

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Nov 7, 2019 12:05:08   #
LeeK Loc: Washington State
 
lamiaceae wrote:
Wild, a private narrow gauge RR or Mine? How do you know it was on private land? The man made structures might be owned by some company with only right of way or easement. Certainly do not enter the tunnel.

Are strange sights like that common in WA? Here in CA any underground bunker is certainly military and trespassing would probably get you shot, not fined or arrested. If you could even get that close to such a location. And the old mine entrances are dangerous.

There is probably little that would happen after you took the photo if no one tried to stop you ahead, but you probably should not use it for commercial purposed. For example in a very different location, in downtown Los Angeles you can pretty much photograph anything you like from the street, especially from across a street, but as soon as you step on the property of some businesses. Say off the public side walk on to their entry way or steps, someone may come out and explain you need a permit from them or at least prior permission. They want control and to be able to make money off others photography, even potentially tourist amateurs. I note, Disney Hall and the corner fountain near Olvera Street across from Union Station are both fussy about even standing there with a camera. They must hire people just to harass photographers.
Wild, a private narrow gauge RR or Mine? How do y... (show quote)


We actually came across the owner as he was driving across the area. We waited until he drove to us so we could ask if he knew anything about the area, the train tracks, etc. He was a little vague with answers, saying that the land was "just for (his) fun and 'my sandbox')" and the tracks were for a coal fire steam engine.
I researched a bit, once home. There has been a lot of mining throughout Washington and this general area and there were numerous pictures of old mines and tunnels for mining although I didn't see any of this particular one. We drive up in the hills and mountains a lot and had never seen anything like this, especially with the train tracks. I thought it was interesting.

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Nov 7, 2019 12:10:47   #
LeeK Loc: Washington State
 
larryepage wrote:
This is a very interesting structure to me, from a railroad perspective. Rather than being a tunnel through something, it appears from what you are showing us to have been constructed over the tracks. It is curious to me that the rails and especially the crossties are in quite a state of disrepair, while the doors and especially the stone wall seem to be well cared for. It seems to be an old engine house or equipment shed rather than a tunnel through a mountain. Standard railroad construction standards would have called on it simply to be removed, not tunneled through.

Standard rules for photographing railroads (at least in the western United States) call for not entering onto private property and staying back at least 25 feet from the closest rail. You appear to have complied with both of those here, along with the standard request not to photograph military equipment loaded on trains.

It appears to me that you are completely in the clear here, unless there are other factors that we are all unaware of, or unless you crossed a fence to get to your photography location. By the way, I've been photographing railroads for over 50 years, with both general permission and specific permission. A situation like this has never created or led to a problem.
This is a very interesting structure to me, from a... (show quote)


Your thought that the tunnel may be an equipment shed or old engine house makes sense. It certainly look like this small tunnel would be an old mining tunnel. My thought was that it was closed off for safety reasons but the doors and wall were so impressive and attractive. Oh, well. Will never know. After coming across the owner, he really didn't give any answers and we didn't press for them.

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Nov 7, 2019 12:12:44   #
LeeK Loc: Washington State
 
jerseymike wrote:
As long as you don't trespass or break the law. Are there any sanctuary locations close by??


Interesting that you ask. After actually coming across the owner, in conversation he said that he was building a chapel way up on top of a distant hill.

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Nov 7, 2019 12:15:02   #
DirtFarmer Loc: Escaped from the NYC area, back to MA
 
PixelStan77 wrote:
As long as you took the image from the road you were not trespassing to take the image. Enter it.


Assuming the public has the right to use that road.

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Nov 7, 2019 12:17:38   #
larryepage Loc: North Texas area
 
LeeK wrote:
While driving up in the hills recently, we came upon this door and facade to a short tunnel. There was actually an identical door on the other end, just 30 - 40 feet away. My question: It was visible from the road but was on private property. I'd like to enter it into a local contest with fairly basic information about where it is taken (off the Blewett Pass road in WA). Do you think there would be any problem with this as far as privacy?


Now things make a lot more sense. The scale was not obvious from your photograph. Knowing what we know now, the strategy would be different. I'd ask the owner about his operating schedule and if he has any operating sessions or meets scheduled. He might just invite you back. If this is a 7.5" gauge railroad (as it appears), those are "ride on" trains. The owner would probably enjoy having some really good photographs of his railroad and his equipment.

Just be aware that live steam modelers are one of very few specialized hobbyists that can be weirder than photographers. Sometimes pretty cranky, too, but usually friendly under the veneer.

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Nov 7, 2019 12:19:17   #
amfoto1 Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA
 
LeeK wrote:
While driving up in the hills recently, we came upon this door and facade to a short tunnel. There was actually an identical door on the other end, just 30 - 40 feet away. My question: It was visible from the road but was on private property. I'd like to enter it into a local contest with fairly basic information about where it is taken (off the Blewett Pass road in WA). Do you think there would be any problem with this as far as privacy?


If your photo was taken from public right of way (i.e., from the "road"), then there is no expectation of privacy. The fact that you aren't using the image for commercial purposes also is a consideration. Permission (in the form of a "property photo release") would be advisable if using it for commercial purposes. But that's not the case if you are simply entering it in a photo contest.

If you had to step off the public right of way to take that photo, it would be another matter.

We had exactly this situation arise in a nasty competitive commercial usage case some years ago.

Among other things, I ran the advertising services side of a photo dept. at a newspaper (i.e., not the "news" side).

We had two highly competitive funeral homes in our market, both of whom were regular advertising customers in our newspaper.

One of them asked us to photograph their competitor's crematorium, which was located in the middle of a junkyardo. Not a very nice place to imagine your recently departed loved one was being sent for cremation! The funeral home owner wanted to run an ad based upon the photo and commenting on that fact.

After a lot of discussion and consultation with our legal advisers, we took the photo because it was possible to do so from the adjacent street.... i.e., from the "public right of way". Anyone could drive down the street and see what we photographed, so there was no expectation of privacy. Anyone could have taken the exact same photograph without leaving the roadway and trespassing on private property. We ran the ad, too because it and the photo weren't slanderous or libelous, either, since the photo and ad copy were simply a "statement of fact".

Thankfully the customer only ran that ad one time because we felt it was in poor taste, even if everything about it and the photo was legal.

Finally, in this and similar cases, it's common courtesy to simply ask permission, even when you technically don't need it for your planned use of the image. Maybe offer one or two free prints in exchange for a signature on a property photo release. Often this conversation leads to better access and additional, better photos anyway. ASMP.org has very good and widely used model & property release forms online. https://www.asmp.org/property-model-releases/

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Nov 7, 2019 12:36:40   #
amfoto1 Loc: San Jose, Calif. USA
 
nikonbug wrote:
Shoot and publish the Eiffel Tower and find out.


During the daytime... no problem.

At night, when it's lit up, it's another matter. The Eiffel Tower's lighting is copyrighted and protected. The tower itself is not. https://www.rd.com/advice/travel/eiffel-tower-illegal-photos/ "The tower’s evening light display, installed in 1985 by Pierre Bideau, is technically owned by the artist and protected by copyright."

"Published" also isn't necessarily a problem. Technically, "editorial publication", such as an illustration for a news story, is permissible and a night shot of the tower all lit up wouldn't require a release (although many editors prefer to have photos released, whenever possible). Commercial use and publication is another matter. Whether just posting and sharing on Instagram or YouTube or wherever is "commercial" usage and copyright infringement is a gray area. If they can prove you benefit in some way, you might have problems. Clearly, using the image of the tower at night in an ad, selling the image imprinted on objects or making posters for sale are all commercial uses that could get you in trouble.

A nighttime image of the Eiffel Tower I see being sold on Etsy should have permission! If not, I suspect they think they're skirting copyright infringement by calling it a "fine art" image.... Good luck defending this in court, if it ever comes to that. However, they might only ever see a "cease and desist", and not have any liability so long as they cease selling it... Or, if the seller is in another country where French copyright protections may not be easily applied, they might get away with it for a while. Still, it's copyright infringement! If I were Etsy, I'd think twice about allowing it to be offered on their website, since they might be found to bear some responsibility, too.

The same can be said for some other things, such as corporate logos and symbols.

The "Lone Cypress" tree can be seen and photographed along the 17-Mile Drive between Monterrey and Carmel, California. It's a popular tourist photo spot. But it's image is trademarked as the logo for Pebble Beach and any use of it in commercial manner without permission would be aggressively pursued. Technically, you're on private property too, while on 17-Mile Drive. You have to stop and pay a few $ to drive down that scenic route and past all the estates of famous, rich folk. It's actually a private roadway. (I've paid the toll and driven the 17-Mile Drive with visitors so many times over the years that we started to refer to it as the "340-Mile Drive".) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_Cypress

The same is true of the Disneyland. Notice the logo at the beginning of every Disney movie, the silhouette of the Sleeping Beauty Castle with fireworks. That's a trademark too and protected, as are all Disney characters and everything created by them is copyrighted. If you visit Disneyland and take a photo of the castle for personal use, no problem. The same with the various characters you see there. You could also enter the image into a photo contest without concern. But if you tried to use it in a commercial manner, say imprinted on products you're selling or as part of an advertisement, you should expect the full weight of Disney's legal dept. to come roaring after you! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disneyland

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Nov 7, 2019 12:54:00   #
Rongnongno Loc: FL
 
LeeK wrote:
While driving up in the hills recently, we came upon this door and facade to a short tunnel. There was actually an identical door on the other end, just 30 - 40 feet away. My question: It was visible from the road but was on private property. I'd like to enter it into a local contest with fairly basic information about where it is taken (off the Blewett Pass road in WA). Do you think there would be any problem with this as far as privacy?


SIMPLE answer.

Find the owner and ask for permission.

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Nov 7, 2019 12:55:01   #
halraiser
 
Talk to the property owner if you can. Preferably get a signed property release giving you permission.

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Nov 7, 2019 12:59:25   #
Silverman Loc: Michigan
 
Scruples wrote:
Once you are in the confines of the property lines, you have trespassed. That will cost you more than a photograph. To play it safe, look for ground markers and signs. Stay clear of them - perhaps a hundred feet or so. Then you may be able to take a photo. It's times like these when you need a long zoom lens.
If the shot doesn't work, walk away. Fines and jail time are not worth it.


And a Tripod too.

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Nov 7, 2019 14:51:20   #
Cwilson341 Loc: Central Florida
 
I think this is a fascinating shot. Everything about it leads your imagination to run wild!

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