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Crop sensor /lens question
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Nov 2, 2019 08:00:04   #
billnikon Loc: Pennsylvania/Ohio/Florida/Maui/Oregon/Vermont
 
frankraney wrote:
Bill, a DX24mm on a crop body has a fov of 24mm, but COMPARED to an FX is 36..... The DX body sees the DX lens as it is, 24mm...... They are designed to go together. Right?


NO, but the whole concept is difficult to grasp.
Look at it this way, a DX lens is designed to cover a SMALLER sensor, a DX lens is designed specifically for a DX (cropped sensor body). A FX lens is designed to cover a LARGER sensor. I hope you follow this so far.
SO, if you put a DX lens on a FX body, it will not cover the LARGER sensor of the FX body and you will get vignetting in the corners of the sensors. BUT, if you put a FX lens on a DX body, the FX lens will actually spill over the coverage of the DX sensor BUT can still be used, BUT, you can only use the center of the FX lens because at over covers the corners of the DX sensor.
NOW, this is the confusing part, ANY lens on a cropped sensor camera has a crop factor of 1.5, that is for ANY lens you mount on a crop sensor camera.
Look at this lens from B&H, the Nikon DX 18-200, look at how B&H describes the angle of view, they say,
"27-300mm (35mm Equivalent)". They are trying NOT to confuse anyone, but what they are actually saying is that on a CROPPED DX body, the lens will have an angle of view of 27-300 mm.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=nikon%2018-200&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=
So, any lens put on a DX body is going to receive a cropped 1.5 effect. (For either a DX or FX lens.)
So, getting back to your statement. A DX 24 mm lens on a cropped sensor camera actually has a field of view of 36 mm, not 24 mm. Any lens you mount on a DX body, either a DX or FX lens, will get a 1.5 multiplication field of view factor.
OK, the other part is this, the DX body does not see, it can only respond to any lens put on it, so, the DX 24 mm lens (which by the way does not exist) on a DX body will yield a field of view of 36 mm. And yes, a DX lens is designed to go on a DX camera, that part you understand.
The only confusing part is that you just have to except the fact that ANY lens put on a DX body will receive a 1.5 increase in it's field of view. ANY LENS.
I probably confused you further but I tried, still have not drank my coffee.

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Nov 2, 2019 08:01:11   #
Drbobcameraguy Loc: Eaton Ohio
 
Strodav wrote:
The whole idea of the video is to show how to get EQUIVALENT images between FF sensor cameras and non-FF sensor cameras. Let's say you take portrait with a 50mm lens on a FF camera at 1/500 sec, f4 and ISO 400. If I want an equivalent image with a Nikon DX (aps-c) camera, what lens and settings would I need to use? Answer: 50mm / 1.5 = 33mm (so use a 35mm lens) at f4/1.5 = f/2.7 (so use f/2.8) and ISO 400/1.5^2 = 177 (since you are opening the aperture to maintain blur you need to reduce ISO to get the same exposure) and leave the shutter at 1/500 sec. Please help me understand why this is confusing?
The whole idea of the video is to show how to get ... (show quote)


First off it's confusing because people don't understand math. (google Seattle's new math ideas to see why) Second people don't listen they hear. Hearing is thinking you know how a person is going to complete a sentence after the first half has been spoken. You finish the sentence in your head. All humans do it. Some can't seem to turn it off. Simple as that. 😂 lol

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Nov 2, 2019 08:19:20   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
billnikon wrote:

...
...
Look at this lens from B&H, the Nikon DX 18-200, look at how B&H describes the angle of view, they say,
"27-300mm (35mm Equivalent)". They are trying NOT to confuse anyone, but what they are actually saying is that on a CROPPED DX body, the lens will have an angle of view of 27-300 mm {LENS}.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=nikon%2018-200&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=
So, any lens put on a DX body is going to receive a cropped 1.5 effect. (For either a DX or FX lens.)
So, getting back to your statement. A DX 24 mm lens on a cropped sensor camera actually has a field of view of 36 mm {LENS}, not 24 mm {LENS}. Any lens you mount on a DX body, either a DX or FX lens, will get a 1.5 multiplication field of view factor.
...
...
br ... br ... br Look at this lens from B&H, ... (show quote)

Yes, simple, yet some people make it so complicated.
To less confuse people who might look at the number reference above and think that it is the actual angle of view, adding the word "lens" hopefully reduces that possibility. (See quote snippet above.)

Reply
 
 
Nov 2, 2019 11:52:01   #
frankraney Loc: Clovis, Ca.
 
billnikon wrote:
NO, but the whole concept is difficult to grasp.
Look at it this way, a DX lens is designed to cover a SMALLER sensor, a DX lens is designed specifically for a DX (cropped sensor body). A FX lens is designed to cover a LARGER sensor. I hope you follow this so far.
SO, if you put a DX lens on a FX body, it will not cover the LARGER sensor of the FX body and you will get vignetting in the corners of the sensors. BUT, if you put a FX lens on a DX body, the FX lens will actually spill over the coverage of the DX sensor BUT can still be used, BUT, you can only use the center of the FX lens because at over covers the corners of the DX sensor.
NOW, this is the confusing part, ANY lens on a cropped sensor camera has a crop factor of 1.5, that is for ANY lens you mount on a crop sensor camera.
Look at this lens from B&H, the Nikon DX 18-200, look at how B&H describes the angle of view, they say,
"27-300mm (35mm Equivalent)". They are trying NOT to confuse anyone, but what they are actually saying is that on a CROPPED DX body, the lens will have an angle of view of 27-300 mm.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=nikon%2018-200&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=
So, any lens put on a DX body is going to receive a cropped 1.5 effect. (For either a DX or FX lens.)
So, getting back to your statement. A DX 24 mm lens on a cropped sensor camera actually has a field of view of 36 mm, not 24 mm. Any lens you mount on a DX body, either a DX or FX lens, will get a 1.5 multiplication field of view factor.
OK, the other part is this, the DX body does not see, it can only respond to any lens put on it, so, the DX 24 mm lens (which by the way does not exist) on a DX body will yield a field of view of 36 mm. And yes, a DX lens is designed to go on a DX camera, that part you understand.
The only confusing part is that you just have to except the fact that ANY lens put on a DX body will receive a 1.5 increase in it's field of view. ANY LENS.
I probably confused you further but I tried, still have not drank my coffee.
NO, but the whole concept is difficult to grasp. b... (show quote)


My point was, it is a comparison to ff/35mm.

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Nov 2, 2019 12:19:41   #
Strodav Loc: Houston, Tx
 
Drbobcameraguy wrote:
First off it's confusing because people don't understand math. (google Seattle's new math ideas to see why) Second people don't listen they hear. Hearing is thinking you know how a person is going to complete a sentence after the first half has been spoken. You finish the sentence in your head. All humans do it. Some can't seem to turn it off. Simple as that. 😂 lol


You're probably right, good analysis, but it's a sad state of affairs when something factual and demonstrable is said to be debunked.

Reply
Nov 2, 2019 19:43:25   #
Abo
 
TMurphy71 wrote:
I have pro grade lenses for my full frame camera. I would not waste my time putting my DX lenses on that body. My question is specific for the DX lenses on my crop bodies. If I put my 24mm DX lens on my crop body is it the equivalent of 24mm or 36mm?


Okay... slight misunderstanding.

The "angle of view" of your 24mm lens on your DX camera will be similar to
the angle of view of a 36mm lens on your D750.

Reply
Nov 2, 2019 19:51:40   #
Abo
 
TV714 wrote:
I just read the above mentioned article and the paragraph below, which I copied from the article, really clarifies what is happening with full frame vs crop frame sensors. Imagine the aforementioned image circle provided by the full frame lens (Canon EF, or Nikon FX, etc.) and the full frame sensor inside the circle with its corners just touching the inside of the circle. That is the image the full frame sensor will capture. Now imaging the crop sensor sitting, centered, inside the full frame sensor's area. It sees only a smaller portion of the full image that the full-sized sensor sees. That smaller area is what the crop sensor captures. Once you either view or print that smaller image onto the same sized physical media as the full frame image, you can see how the image is a cropped version of the full frame's image. This explanation puts a different perspective on and goes a long way to help with the understanding of this topic.

Each lens is designed to cast an image circle on the camera's sensor. The circle cast by a DX lens is smaller and corresponds to the size of a DX sensor. Non-DX lenses cast a larger image circle corresponding to an FX-format sensor. The DX-format camera can use both types of lenses (DX and FX) since the non-DX lens image circle is larger than needed on a DX-format camera.
I just read the above mentioned article and the pa... (show quote)


That's exactly it Bro

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Nov 2, 2019 20:02:49   #
Abo
 
CHG_CANON wrote:
If a Nikon DX lens on a D750 exhibits strong vignetting, the camera is defective or incorrectly configured as the D750 should automatically detect the DX lens and perform a crop of the image circle ... page 111 of the D750 manual discusses the 'Auto DX crop' feature of this camera. That auto-crop restores the approx 36mm field of view as discussed in numerous posts in the thread.



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Nov 2, 2019 22:13:48   #
frankraney Loc: Clovis, Ca.
 
Abo wrote:
Okay... slight misunderstanding.

The "angle of view" of your 24mm lens on your DX camera will be similar to
the angle of view of a 36mm lens on your D750.


Another misuse of terms?.....I think you mean field of view.....angle of view is fixed by the lens. These two are often misused......angle of view is the angle from the crossover point (focal point) in the lens to the outside edge of the front of the lens. Field of view is a mix of lens and sensor....and also changes with distance to subject.....if you back up, that same angle of view will give a wider field of view.

Below is from the following:
https://photographylife.com/equivalent-focal-length-and-field-of-view

3) Angle of View
Lens manufacturers often publish the term “angle of view” or “maximum angle of view” in lens specifications, because they define what the lens is capable of seeing in degrees. For example, the Nikon 24mm f/1.4G lens has a maximum angle of view of 84°, while Nikon 300mm f/2.8G telephoto lens has a maximum angle of view of only 8°10′ when used on film or full-frame cameras. Take a look at the following illustration:


Nikon 300mm vs 24mm AoV

As you can see, 84 degrees is very wide when compared to 8 degrees. That’s why you can fit a lot of the scene when shooting with a 24mm lens, while a 300mm lens allows you to capture a narrower, but much more magnified portion of the scene.

The main difference between the angle of view and field of view, is that the former is an attribute of the lens, while the latter is the result of both the lens and the camera. For example, the above angle of view of 84° for the 24mm f/1.4G is only for a full-frame camera. Once mounted on a camera with a cropped/APS-C sensor, the field of view, or what you see through the camera actually gets narrower to 61°. Nikon publishes two different numbers for angle of view for lenses – “Maximum Angle of View (DX-format)” and “Maximum Angle of View (FX-format)”. In reality, the actual physical characteristic of the lens (what it sees) does not change. As explained below, the size of the sensor simply crops part of the frame, which results in a narrower “field of view”.

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Nov 2, 2019 22:20:24   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
frankraney wrote:
Another misuse of terms?.....I think you mean field of view.....angle of view is fixed by the lens. These two are often misused......angle of view is the angle from the crossover point (focal point) in the lens to the outside edge of the front of the lens. Field of view is a mix of lens and sensor....and also changes with distance to subject.....if you back up, that same angle of view will give a wider field of view.

Below is from the following:
https://photographylife.com/equivalent-focal-length-and-field-of-view

3) Angle of View
Lens manufacturers often publish the term “angle of view” or “maximum angle of view” in lens specifications, because they define what the lens is capable of seeing in degrees. For example, the Nikon 24mm f/1.4G lens has a maximum angle of view of 84°, while Nikon 300mm f/2.8G telephoto lens has a maximum angle of view of only 8°10′ when used on film or full-frame cameras. Take a look at the following illustration:


Nikon 300mm vs 24mm AoV

As you can see, 84 degrees is very wide when compared to 8 degrees. That’s why you can fit a lot of the scene when shooting with a 24mm lens, while a 300mm lens allows you to capture a narrower, but much more magnified portion of the scene.

The main difference between the angle of view and field of view, is that the former is an attribute of the lens, while the latter is the result of both the lens and the camera. For example, the above angle of view of 84° for the 24mm f/1.4G is only for a full-frame camera. Once mounted on a camera with a cropped/APS-C sensor, the field of view, or what you see through the camera actually gets narrower to 61°. Nikon publishes two different numbers for angle of view for lenses – “Maximum Angle of View (DX-format)” and “Maximum Angle of View (FX-format)”. In reality, the actual physical characteristic of the lens (what it sees) does not change. As explained below, the size of the sensor simply crops part of the frame, which results in a narrower “field of view”.
Another misuse of terms?.....I think you mean fiel... (show quote)


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Nov 6, 2019 22:14:11   #
Abo
 
frankraney wrote:
Another misuse of terms?.....I think you mean field of view.....angle of view is fixed by the lens. These two are often misused......angle of view is the angle from the crossover point (focal point) in the lens to the outside edge of the front of the lens. Field of view is a mix of lens and sensor....and also changes with distance to subject.....if you back up, that same angle of view will give a wider field of view.

Below is from the following:
https://photographylife.com/equivalent-focal-length-and-field-of-view

3) Angle of View
Lens manufacturers often publish the term “angle of view” or “maximum angle of view” in lens specifications, because they define what the lens is capable of seeing in degrees. For example, the Nikon 24mm f/1.4G lens has a maximum angle of view of 84°, while Nikon 300mm f/2.8G telephoto lens has a maximum angle of view of only 8°10′ when used on film or full-frame cameras. Take a look at the following illustration:


Nikon 300mm vs 24mm AoV

As you can see, 84 degrees is very wide when compared to 8 degrees. That’s why you can fit a lot of the scene when shooting with a 24mm lens, while a 300mm lens allows you to capture a narrower, but much more magnified portion of the scene.

The main difference between the angle of view and field of view, is that the former is an attribute of the lens, while the latter is the result of both the lens and the camera. For example, the above angle of view of 84° for the 24mm f/1.4G is only for a full-frame camera. Once mounted on a camera with a cropped/APS-C sensor, the field of view, or what you see through the camera actually gets narrower to 61°. Nikon publishes two different numbers for angle of view for lenses – “Maximum Angle of View (DX-format)” and “Maximum Angle of View (FX-format)”. In reality, the actual physical characteristic of the lens (what it sees) does not change. As explained below, the size of the sensor simply crops part of the frame, which results in a narrower “field of view”.
Another misuse of terms?.....I think you mean fiel... (show quote)


Thanks for the heads up.

However you failed to observe that I put "Angle Of View" in inverted commas,
as I do with the so called "Full Frame".

Apart from your oversight above, words of course can have different meaning depending on the school
you went to, or even depending on which of two different lecturers you
were tutored by in the same school.

So instead of the (inaccurate) sniping bud, do something
positive and draw us a diagram of the effect of a different
sensor and lens combination and post it in this thread.
A picture being worth (more than?) a thousand words.
You should be capable of that.

Same goes for you Longshadow.

Reply
 
 
Nov 6, 2019 23:43:33   #
frankraney Loc: Clovis, Ca.
 
Abo wrote:
Thanks for the heads up.

However you failed to observe that I put "Angle Of View" in inverted commas,
as I do with the so called "Full Frame".

Apart from your oversight above, words of course can have different meaning depending on the school
you went to, or even depending on which of two different lecturers you
were tutored by in the same school.

So instead of the (inaccurate) sniping bud, do something
positive and draw us a diagram of the effect of a different
sensor and lens combination and post it in this thread.
A picture being worth (more than?) a thousand words.
You should be capable of that.

Same goes for you Longshadow.
Thanks for the heads up. br br However you failed... (show quote)


Pictures are in the link, I'm not an artist...... you missed the question mark.

You are right, some words and phrases can have a different meaning...BUT. angle of view and field of view do not fall into that category... They have completely different meaning........ But some people interchange them, and all that does is add to the beginners confusion and some, like me that are not beginners, but easily confused....speaking of confused, what does upside quotes mean? And what was the inaccurate snipping?

Reply
Nov 7, 2019 07:10:10   #
Longshadow Loc: Audubon, PA, United States
 
Abo wrote:
Thanks for the heads up.

However you failed to observe that I put "Angle Of View" in inverted commas,
as I do with the so called "Full Frame".

Apart from your oversight above, words of course can have different meaning depending on the school
you went to, or even depending on which of two different lecturers you
were tutored by in the same school.

So instead of the (inaccurate) sniping bud, do something
positive and draw us a diagram of the effect of a different
sensor and lens combination and post it in this thread.
A picture being worth (more than?) a thousand words.
You should be capable of that.

Same goes for you Longshadow.
Thanks for the heads up. br br However you failed... (show quote)


Why?
The lens' angle of view does not change, the "captured" angle of view does,
for a different field of view.

Reply
Nov 7, 2019 08:44:40   #
BebuLamar
 
frankraney wrote:
Another misuse of terms?.....I think you mean field of view.....angle of view is fixed by the lens. These two are often misused......angle of view is the angle from the crossover point (focal point) in the lens to the outside edge of the front of the lens. Field of view is a mix of lens and sensor....and also changes with distance to subject.....if you back up, that same angle of view will give a wider field of view.

Below is from the following:
https://photographylife.com/equivalent-focal-length-and-field-of-view

3) Angle of View
Lens manufacturers often publish the term “angle of view” or “maximum angle of view” in lens specifications, because they define what the lens is capable of seeing in degrees. For example, the Nikon 24mm f/1.4G lens has a maximum angle of view of 84°, while Nikon 300mm f/2.8G telephoto lens has a maximum angle of view of only 8°10′ when used on film or full-frame cameras. Take a look at the following illustration:


Nikon 300mm vs 24mm AoV

As you can see, 84 degrees is very wide when compared to 8 degrees. That’s why you can fit a lot of the scene when shooting with a 24mm lens, while a 300mm lens allows you to capture a narrower, but much more magnified portion of the scene.

The main difference between the angle of view and field of view, is that the former is an attribute of the lens, while the latter is the result of both the lens and the camera. For example, the above angle of view of 84° for the 24mm f/1.4G is only for a full-frame camera. Once mounted on a camera with a cropped/APS-C sensor, the field of view, or what you see through the camera actually gets narrower to 61°. Nikon publishes two different numbers for angle of view for lenses – “Maximum Angle of View (DX-format)” and “Maximum Angle of View (FX-format)”. In reality, the actual physical characteristic of the lens (what it sees) does not change. As explained below, the size of the sensor simply crops part of the frame, which results in a narrower “field of view”.
Another misuse of terms?.....I think you mean fiel... (show quote)


The angle of view is dependent on the sensor size (or film format).
The field of view is dependent on sensor size and distance.
It's the angle of coverage that is not dependent on either.

Reply
Nov 7, 2019 09:23:23   #
Joe Blow
 
A lens projects, a sensor captures. One does not change the other.

A 24mm lens will have the same angle regardless of what size sensor is in the camera. The size of the lens is a standardized reference* which doesn't change the angle, amount of light, or the depth of field because of the sensor. It only refers to the lens.

All lenses project an image larger than the sensor (or film). Because the edges of the projection will have distortion, they are not captured by the sensor. The sensor will capture a portion of that image and crop the rest. Even FF are cropping the projection. The projection remains the same though regardless of the sensor size.

A 24mm DX (or Canon EF-S) is not 24mm. However, because they project and capture the same size image that a regular 24mm would on a crop sensor, the rating is standardized as 24mm. The captured image on a crop camera will be the same as if a standard 24mm lens was used, approximating what a 36mm would capture on a FF.

*Originally, the size of the lens was from the front element to the focal plane (film). That was when lenses were much simpler and usually only had one or two elements. Today, most lenses bear little physical comparison between their actual length and their rated size. A "24mm lens" is a standardized reference for a size of projection, not the length of the lens

So why not use angle of projection as the standard reference? My opinion is most people suck at geometry. They prefer straight numbers over angles. It would be easier to change America over to metric than change lenses to their angle of projection. Lens length are relative anyway. Most photographers would not buy a 100mm lens if they owned a 135mm lens.

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